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I think I understand how a high wing differentiates from a mid wing or a low wing; what I am asking is how, for instance, a very high high-wing makes itself unique in flight from a very low high-wing.

So let's say you have a high-wing aircraft. Raise the wing vertically to make the high-wing even higher. What does this do to the airplane's flight characteristics?

  • An important factor is the "pendulum effect" or "pendulum stability"-- google ASE questions or answers involving these terms-- I'll post some links when I get a chance-- – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 01:27
  • Highly related -- https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/53437/does-pendulum-effect-apply-to-hang-gliders-or-any-aircraft6 – quiet flyer Feb 21 '22 at 01:01
  • Re link above-- and see my answer https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/53437/does-pendulum-effect-apply-to-hang-gliders-or-any-aircraft/56548#56548 . Could be further improved by incorporating some of the specific points I've made in comments to two of the answers to the present question -- – quiet flyer Feb 21 '22 at 01:03
  • Another highly related question (arguably a near-duplicate, except the current one is broader)-- https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/26396/why-are-high-wing-aircraft-more-stable -- this is a topic that's gotten quite a lot of exposure on this site, and you can see that there's a bit of an ongoing controversy, with several contributors consistently falling into one "camp" or the other-- – quiet flyer Feb 21 '22 at 12:40
  • Another highly-related question https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/64380/contribution-of-wing-vertical-location-to-roll-stability – quiet flyer Feb 22 '22 at 22:36

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First off, it's important to realize that a wing does not constitute a fulcrum in a pendulum. There's no magical hinge that a plane rotates about, hidden in the wing. This is known as the pendulum fallacy.

Instead, think of an airplane purely in terms of incoming airflow. If the air is coming from straight ahead, there's not much difference between a low wing and a high wing. The main difference is that interference effects at the wing root are most prominent at the suction side (top of the wing) in a low wing aircraft, which may affect performance. Mid fuselage would be ideal, like on most gliders.

A more prominent effect is when the wind is not from straight ahead but from the side, like in a gust or sideslip. This will increase the pressure at the windward side of the fuselage. For a low wing, this high pressure pushes the windward wing down, whereas a high wing will be pushed up. Ideally, you want the latter, since the induced roll will make the plane slip the other way, stabilizing towards a coordinated turn. So a high wing is superior in this regard, although dihedral can also provide this stabilization. A high wing far away from the fuselage would lose this benefit.

In reality, wing placement is governed mostly by practical issues like obstacle or water clearance, landing gear and engine placement, and not having a wing spar in the middle of the passenger cabin. Dihedral or anhedral is then used to achieve the desired stability.

Sanchises
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  • Consider an unswept flat wing (no dihedral), with a streamlined heavy dense weight mounted far below the wing, connected to the wing by an infinitely thin (but completely rigid) pylon. Interference effects between pylon and wing are nil. Also the weight is so compact that sideforce effects generated by the impact of sideways airflow against weight are nil. If any sideways airflow is present, won't the simple fact that the wing's drag vector now has a sideways component, acting above the CG of the whole system, create a roll torque in the downwind direction (i.e. a dihedral-like effect) – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 14:00
  • (The problem should be able to be analyzed either by treating wing and "pendulum" weight as a single rigid system, or by treating them as two separate bodies and analyzing what torque one exerts on the other -- with the same answer yielded by both approaches-- ) – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 14:01
  • (Potentially could (and may) refine this into a new question after some further thought and input -- ) – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 14:01
  • (One issue is I'm a little confused about whether (or why) we would still see the same roll torque if we analyzed the problem from the point of view of the wind frame of reference rather than the aircraft's body frame of reference. On the other hand, if the roll torque is generated by actual dihedral, or by sweep, then the answer to that is obvious.) – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 14:08
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    Considering the Catalina as a giant hang glider shifting its weight... the quandary becomes: will it roll faster than it accelerates sideways, just like balancing a broomstick. If it is "bottom heavy", the weight is dragged behind the wing, if it is top heavy, the weight (unstably) falls forward, acceleration (from the bottom) must match its rate of (angular) topple. Interestingly, aerodynamic drag helps stabilize top-heavy, and promotes bottom heavy roll, but once acceleration goes to 0 drag alone must stabilize top heavy. – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 20 '22 at 16:14
  • Proper analysis seems to require center (and magnitude) of horizontal lift, drag, and center of mass. – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 20 '22 at 16:18
  • @quietflyer Yes, I must admit I neglected skin drag of the wing. What you're describing is similar to adding a lot of dihedral. So it will tend to coordinated flight, but sadly a graveyard spiral is also coordinated flight... – Sanchises Feb 20 '22 at 16:38
  • @RobertDiGiovanni I'm sorry but once more I have no idea what you're saying. Could you please try and formulate concrete questions or suggestions, or otherwise take it to the chat room? – Sanchises Feb 20 '22 at 16:43
  • @Sanchises -- and now consider that we take said wing as described above, and add tip plates that project equally far above and below the wing. In a sideslip (sideways flow) they will generate sideforce. Without the heavy mass rigidly mounted below the wing, this will generate no roll torque, because they are shaped so that they generate no dihedral or anhedral effect, projecting equally far above and below. But with CG of the system fixed far below the wing, this sideforce will create a powerful dihedral-like roll torque, potentially far more effective than just skin drag alone. – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 18:14
  • (OK, because of wingtip vortices etc, the tip plate surfaces perhaps should not be exactly symmetrical above and below the wing to achieve zero roll torque in the case where CG is up by wing, if so modify shape as needed, the point of the thought experiment should still be clear-- ) – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 18:16
  • I think this kind of thought experiment opens the door to understanding what is going on with paragliders, where the wing itself actually has a very distinct anhedral geometry, yet all that side area acting high above the CG of the whole system (treating the suspension lines as rigid struts and treating the wing fabric as a rigid structure) generates a powerful dihedral-like roll torque in the presence of any sideslip at all. Again we could expand the thought experiment to consider effects of flexible structure but that's just an additional complexity or level of detail. – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 18:18
  • Similarly, in case of hang gliders rather than paragliders, mounting pilot's single suspension strap to a point well below the CG of the wing itself, as per some early designs, surely creates some "pendulum stability" due to effects noted above, including fact that "billowed" shape of wing exposes considerable side area to any sideways component in flow-- (all this dealing with the hands-free case and keeping in mind that when pilot is hands-free, his mass essentially acts as if is concentrated right at the point where the flexible "hang strap" connects to the rigid frame of the aircraft... – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 18:21
  • (Said way too much, should open a chat room and move comments to there I guess-- but I think these points are worth some consideration-- ) – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 18:22
  • All these effects definitely are based on effects of sideways flow, not fully coordinated flight-- but a turn generally does involve some sideslip unless we are making specific efforts to prevent it (i.e. w/ rudder) -- – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 18:25
  • @Sanchises sorry about all the clutter. I would start with the broomstick balanced by hand. Just draw in the vectors. Interesting qf point about coordinated flight, and how off center drag would affect it! Is a hang glider "coordinated", or does it slipturn (and still "center the ball")? – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 20 '22 at 20:39
  • @quietflyer we have fun with "pendulum stability", but drag/lift vectors around the center of mass hold well with the modeling. Stuff basically weathervanes to the relative wind. – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 20 '22 at 20:43
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The most important advantage that a higher wing gives you, is the ability to land on 'airports' that have obstacles directly adjacent to the runway, such as tall grass or snow banks, or surfaces that may provoke roll, such as water. It also allows you to have the CG determine your airplanes tendency to keep speed constant, rather than only the wing and tail shape. With a very high wing, pitching up or down will change the projection of the lengthwise distance between neutral point and CG on the horizontal plane much more than on mid- or low wing aircraft. This means that at high pitch angle your static stability is larger than at low pitch angle.

A good example of such an aircraft is the Consolidated PBY Catalina (picture source).

Consolidated PBY Catalina

Peter Kämpf
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  • @PeterKämpf Not really, It's something else I mean, but I don't know which word to use for it. I'll edit it out. –  Feb 19 '22 at 08:38
  • @PeterKämpf You're right. It still doesn't sound entirely right. Please feel free to edit it accordingly. You know what I mean to say. I'm not a native speaker, which never entirely stops being an obstacle. –  Feb 19 '22 at 08:57
  • The lower the CG sits along the vertical axis, the further it moves from where it wants to be as the aircraft rolls or pitches.. –  Feb 19 '22 at 09:06
  • @PeterKämpf CG is probably the wrong term to use at all. When it sits right at the spot where all three axis cross, banking or pitching will not make it have influence. The further the CG is positioned along the vertical axis away from where the other two cross, , the more it will push the airplane back into straight flight. . Thnx –  Feb 19 '22 at 09:31
  • @PeterKämpf I read some of your other posts and found them to be quite enlightning. Is what you mean the reason why it is possible to make loopings with a hang glider? –  Feb 19 '22 at 10:10
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So let's say you have a high-wing aircraft

Allright, I choose the Dornier Do-24 ATT, a very well behaved high wing airplane with excellent seaworthiness. Below I show it in frontal and side view with lift and weight forces symbolized by arrows. I decomposed the lift into its zero-lift moment and put the lift vector at the neutral point, where all angle-of-attack-dependent lift acts, so the lengthwise distance between weight and lift vector is proportional to the static longitudinal stability and is delineated by a pair of arrows. Of course, when you shift the lift vector into the center of pressure, it will be aligned with the weight vector and the zero-lift moment will disappear.

Do-24 ATT sketch 1

This is my baseline high wing design, and next I raise wing and tail by a grotesque amount. No less will do to make the differences obvious.

Raise the wing vertically to make the high-wing even higher. What does this do to the airplane's flight characteristics?

Do-24 ATT sketch 2

If we neglect the additional vertical surface at the back, what has changed are inertias in all axes, which have grown by the increased distance between the horizontal surfaces and the fuselage. Also, the center of gravity has moved up a bit.

What are the consequences for the flight characteristics?

  1. Maneuvering will be more sluggish and will require larger control surface deflections.
  2. Rolling will cause a sideways shift at the pilot's station which might be a bit confusing, but one can get used to this.
  3. Stability hasn't changed. Static stability is identical to the baseline and since the tail lever arm is still the same, pitch damping is also the same. The increased fore-back motion of the wing during a pitch oscillation will mostly make itself felt in inertial changes, aerodynamically this is of minor consequence.
  4. The higher engine placement means higher pitching moment contributions from the engines. More downforce on the horizontal tail is needed to compensate the pitch-down moment from the high engines, and throttle changes will require high pitch trim changes.

Now what about lateral stability? And what about pitch changes away from level flight at cruise speed? For this we need another sketch. The baseline first:

Do-24 ATT sketch 3

On the left, the airplane flies a coordinated turn with a bank angle of 45° and on the right it is in level flight close to stall at 15° angle of attack. Turning adds a centrifugal force which acts at the center of gravity and needs a bank angle and lift increase so lift is sufficient to balance the resulting mass forces (denoted as R here). Since both forces act along the centerline, no imbalance or instability comes with the high wing arrangement. However, the side sketch now reveals a larger distance between the mass and lift forces, which means that the airplane becomes longitudinally more stable at low speed. The zero-lift moment has to become larger to trim this high pitch angle by incasing the negative elevator deflection. Note that the green circle has grown in size and weight to reflect this. The increased elevator travel helps to keep stick forces at low dynamic pressure up and requires more elevator travel for stalling than in a low wing configuration.

And now we do the same for the high wing version:

Do-24 ATT sketch 4

Again, not much has changed, only that the stabilizing effect of a high pitch attitude is now even more pronounced and the zero-lift moment needs to become even larger than before. This will require a bigger tail, or only a small range of angles of attack can be trimmed. Turning feels the same, apart from the need to overcome the higher inertia with more forceful commands, and again no instability can be seen.

But a low wing ... a low wing will still show the same results. Angle of attack changes mean less change in static longitudinal stability and lateral stability is unaffected. Only the effect of the fuselage on the yaw-induced rolling moment will require a low wing to have more dihedral which makes it ever so slightly less efficient. But mayhem and carnage fail to manifest themselves.

And what does an uncoordinated turn do? Now the airplane will sideslip and the weight vector will not be aligned with the centerline in the frontal view. But the lift vector, still orthogonal to the wing, will, so no rolling moment from weight or wing lift develops. Only the side force of the vertical tail and the fuselage might cause a very small roll contribution which can easily be balanced with a bit of aileron. Again, mayhem and carnage fail to manifest themselves.

The central fallacy here is the comparison with the broom, balanced on a fingertip. Airplanes (and drones or rockets, for that measure) are different. Conservation of momentum dictates that all rotations take place around the center of gravity, and lift, being the result of surface pressures, is always orthogonal to the surface of the wing. In consequence, regardless of wing position, a bank angle will not cause a destabilizing rolling moment.

Peter Kämpf
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  • +1 Ir's a good answer. Would that still require all the comments on other people's answers? – Koyovis Feb 20 '22 at 23:44
  • @Koyovis Tried to nudge them to the truth but the force is strong with the pendulum fallacy ... – Peter Kämpf Feb 20 '22 at 23:47
  • See my recent comments under Sanchises's answer about roll torque generated by wing's drag vector during a sideslip, acting well above the CG -- -- also the rolling effect of any sideforce generated by the wing due to wingtip endplates, etc, or even due to side area exposed by dihedral, gull-wing geometry (dihedral inboard, anhedral or flat outboard), or even anhedral geometry-- the paraglider case is particularly instructive because during sideslip it manages to generate a net dihedral-like roll torque with an exteme anhedral wing geometry-- all due to wing being so very high above CG-- – quiet flyer Feb 20 '22 at 23:53
  • -- all due to wing being so very high above the CG of the whole system with so very much side area exposed to the sideways wind component during sideslip -- – quiet flyer Feb 21 '22 at 00:01
  • Will work on merging those (and these) comments into a new answer and then deleting them -- !! – – quiet flyer Feb 21 '22 at 00:01
  • There are good arguments for high and low wing stability while turning. With a high wing, if one relaxes the elevator before rolling out, the sink will help it roll upright. With a very low wing/very high CG, relaxing elevator first may result in an inversion. Staying with that broomstick for now. – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 21 '22 at 01:17
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Placing the wing above the center of mass of the airframe means that perturbations in the three axes will generate a righting moment which tends to oppose the perturbation. The plane can then be positively stable in the hands-off condition and will to some extent "fly itself".

Placing the wing (the center of support) below the center of mass is then like balancing a pencil (with its center of mass at its midpoint) by its tip on your finger (the center of support). Once the pencil begins to rotate and fall, the rolling moment becomes stronger (as the center of mass gets offset relative to the center of support) which means those perturbations will grow instead, and the plane will be divergent (dynamically unstable, i.e. it will display "negative stability") in all axes- and if flown hands-off, it will try very hard to invert itself and fly upside-down. Mayhem then ensues, and carnage will result.

niels nielsen
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    While a lower wing is indeed less stable in pitch, you can't be serious about the rest of your answer, can you? – Peter Kämpf Feb 19 '22 at 06:33
  • @PeterKämpf Why not? I read that explanation coming from a PBY pilot. That's why I took it serious. You seem very sure. What speaks against it? I can't imagine a low CG to have no effect at all, but that's just my imagination. –  Feb 19 '22 at 09:39
  • The misleading term is CG itself. It implicates a connection to the earths gravity, which it doesn't necessarily have. It is subject to any acceleration working on the airplane. So as the airplane banks, G-forces are working in the opposite direction to the turn along the line of acceleration ., leaving the CG in a spot where it is quite comfortable.. For the CG to stabilize the aircraft, It has to roll without turning or pitch without climbing, or climb at a constant rate.... I think.. The straight forward pendulum effect applies as the word says on pendula and an aircraft is not a pendulum. –  Feb 19 '22 at 10:37
  • @PeterKämpf, yes I am unless I misunderstand the question- will edit. Please review it :-) – niels nielsen Feb 20 '22 at 03:17
  • @PeterKämpf, the fuel tank atop the bomber is empty and weighs much less than the bomber and I would assume a skilled pilot or an autopilot could keep the center of lift centered under the center of mass so mayhem and carnage are avoided, yes? – niels nielsen Feb 20 '22 at 03:31
  • @nielsnielsen very old, but good discussion here about the "balancing pencil" with aircraft. Rolling to the side will introduce a lateral acceleration, which helps rebalance. Additionally, drag from the lateral motion (on the pencil) also resists its toppling. A little top-heavy helps manuvering. The 747/Shuttle combination did have banking limits for reasons mentioned, but again, aerodynamic effects are strongly in play. Generally, a banking plane will sink, top heavy (and bottom draggy) will tend to invert as a badminton shuttlecock. – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 20 '22 at 10:38
  • @nielsnielsen The "fuel tank" held a rocket which could weigh up to 50 tons - not trivial, and not a problem for flight stability. Higher inertias meant a more sluggish reaction to control inputs, but no loss of stability. I have now added my own answer, let me know if it helps in understanding the issue. – Peter Kämpf Feb 20 '22 at 23:07
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You can imagine that any change to the outside shape of an aircraft or anything that affects its centre of gravity or angular inertia will affect its flight characteristics. On the face of it, a high wing will impart more stability but it may compromise other things such as placement of engines and undercarriage, airflow over the empennage and control surfaces, characteristics while in ground effect and so on. In aircraft design there are very many factors to take into account and it’s difficult to consider one in isolation from the others. Trivially, high wing has more inherent stability than low wing but there are many ther factors.

Frog
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  • Please explain why a high wing has more stability, and why this should be trivial. You don't mean the pendulum effect fallacy, do you? – Peter Kämpf Feb 19 '22 at 09:23
  • @Peter Kämpf forgive me I’m primarily a paraglider pilot and rely heavily on this phenomenon as I have no empennage. – Frog Feb 19 '22 at 19:46
  • So while the pendulum effect may be regarded as a fallacy, a claim supported by the fact that most rockets have the engines at the bottom, surely it’s intuitive that an aircraft with a large weight positioned high above it on a tower would have rather poor flight characteristics, no? – Frog Feb 21 '22 at 05:48
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Weight distribution is critical in determining the effects of making a high wing even higher.

While trial and error with balsa models will keep one busy, some educational background is very helpful in eliminating the more embarrassing moments.

As a designer, try to plot any changes in center of gravity and center of drag.

Generally with aircraft, raising the wing moves the center of drag higher. This can make the plane more difficult to control in a crosswind. As seen with the PBY 3 Catalina, the designers raised the center of gravity by placing the engines on the wings to reduce this effect$^1$.

Having the Cdrag above the Cg means that ailerons must be held in a turn or the plane will tend to roll away. This is the "self righting tendency".

Again depending on the new CG, raising the wing may also give the plane a greater tendency to pitch up. As this will vary with forward airspeed and AoA, one might wonder if too much of this may actually be undesirable.

$^1$ keeping the props away from the water as well

Robert DiGiovanni
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