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I was looking for a proof for it and all rely on the work-energy theorem. But the work energy theorem relies on the kinetic energy equation. Ergo circular logic.

So where did it come from?

Qmechanic
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  • What formula are you referring to as "the kinetic energy formula"? – The Photon Jan 02 '21 at 21:46
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    The standard one you learn in high school (v^2m/2) – Lucas Frykman Jan 02 '21 at 21:49
  • If you're worried about "circular reasoning" in physics, see here. – knzhou Jan 02 '21 at 22:02
  • Another route: https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/112344/44126 – rob Jan 02 '21 at 23:15
  • This can be done non-circularly and its hard to say how to fix up whatever version you've seen without knowing what it is. The accepted answer to the question MarkH links to does this nicely. – jacob1729 Jan 02 '21 at 23:19
  • By capitalizing on two (standard) kinematic relations it is possible to derive the work-energy theorem (from F=ma) without prior definition of 'work done'. This derivation can then serve as the definition of 'work done'. See my answer. – Cleonis Jan 03 '21 at 02:47
  • @LucasFrykman, do you accept the concept of conservation of energy? – David White Jan 03 '21 at 03:52
  • E = ∫ v d(mv) therefore dE =v * d(mv) = v * F t = distance * F. This very interesting formula holds in relativity too – R. Emery Jan 03 '21 at 06:45

6 Answers6

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By "kinetic energy equation", I assume you mean the definition $$KE = \frac{1}{2} mv^2$$

This does indeed arise from the work-energy theorem, which says that the net work done on an object of mass $m$ over some interval of time is given by

$$W_{net}=\frac{1}{2}mv_f^2- \frac{1}{2} mv_i^2$$

Looking at that equation, we simply notice that the quantity $\frac{1}{2} mv^2$ seems to be useful, so we give it a name - kinetic energy - and then phrase the work-energy theorem as

$$W_{net} = \Delta(KE)= KE_f - KE_i$$


The net work done on an object between times $t_i$ and $t_f$ is $$W_{net} = \int_{t_i}^{t_f} \mathbf F_{net}(t) \cdot \mathbf v(t) \ dt$$ Newton's second law tells us that $\mathbf F_{net} = m\mathbf a$, and so

$$W_{net} = \int_{t_i}^{t_f} \bigg(m \mathbf a(t) \cdot \mathbf v(t)\bigg) dt$$

However, $\mathbf a(t) = \mathbf v'(t)$, so $$\mathbf a \cdot \mathbf v = \mathbf v' \cdot \mathbf v = \frac{1}{2} \frac{d}{dt}(\mathbf v \cdot \mathbf v) = \frac{d}{dt}\bigg(\frac{1}{2} v^2\bigg)$$ and so finally

$$W_{net} = \int_{t_i}^{t_f} \frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{1}{2} m v^2\right) dt = \frac{1}{2}mv_f^2 - \frac{1}{2}mv_i^2$$

J. Murray
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    How did the work-energy theorem arise then? The work theorem REQUIRES that the KE equation holds true. This is circular reasoning. Unless you mean that KE is by definition which doesn't answer my question. How would you arrive at that definition without the work-energy theorem? – Lucas Frykman Jan 02 '21 at 21:50
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    @LucasFrykman No it isn't. I updated my answer to show that $W_{net} = \frac{1}{2}mv_f^2 - \frac{1}{2}mv_i^2$ is a consequence of Newton's second law. We then define kinetic energy to be equal to $\frac{1}{2} mv^2$. – J. Murray Jan 02 '21 at 21:58
  • At what point did you show that work is equal to change in kinetic energy here? How do we know force times displacement computes to joules? – Lucas Frykman Jan 02 '21 at 22:03
  • I believe momentum is a consequence of the combination of Newton's 2nd and 3rd law, not kinetic energy, the answer for kinetic energy and work is given in my post –  Jan 02 '21 at 22:04
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    @LucasFrykman Do you understand what it means to define something? A definition is not something you prove. I showed that the net work is equal to $\frac{1}{2} mv_f^2 - \frac{1}{2}mv_i^2$ - that is, the change in the quantity $\frac{1}{2} mv^2$ - which motivates us to give $\frac{1}{2}mv^2$ a name. Somebody a long time ago decided that the name for that quantity should be kinetic energy. – J. Murray Jan 02 '21 at 22:09
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    @Neelim I’m not sure what you’re talking about. My answer makes no reference to momentum. – J. Murray Jan 02 '21 at 22:12
  • As @J. Murray emphasizes, kinetic energy is defined, just as force is defined. Using that definition you can establish the work/kinetic energy result. – John Darby Jan 02 '21 at 22:13
  • @J. Murray I know it doesn't. What I meant was that kinetic energy and work done is not a consequence of Newton's 2nd law, momentum is. Work done and K.E. formulas come from theorems by Noether and Émilie du Châtelet –  Jan 02 '21 at 22:15
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    @Neelim Once you define what work is, the work-energy theorem is an immediate consequence of Newton’s second law. What motivates you to define the quantity we call work is irrelevant. – J. Murray Jan 02 '21 at 22:18
  • the question is how you define work quantitatively. That is not a consequence of Newton's Second Law, it comes from experimental results in the 18th century. As seen in the article I linked, during Newton's time there was not even a concept of energy that was distinct from momentum.. –  Jan 02 '21 at 22:26
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    @Neelim The work done by a force $\mathbf F$ is defined to be $\int \mathbf F \cdot d\mathbf r$. This is unambiguously what I mean when I say the word "work." You can have a conversation about why I should define such a quantity and why the English word "work" would be a fitting name for it, but that is beside the point. – J. Murray Jan 02 '21 at 22:29
  • my point is that the definition itself comes from observations, not derived. It is a question of how it is defined as well as why. Otherwise there could be any arbitrary definition of work, such as W = Fd^2 which does not physically represent anything meaningful. The reason W is considered to be Fd is because it is a value that seems to physically represent energy, and also seems to be conserved. And that was found based on experimental results –  Jan 02 '21 at 22:34
  • @Neelim You are talking about historical motivation and context. That is interesting, but I am talking about the actual structure of Newtonian mechanics, which tells us that $\int \mathbf F_{net} d\mathbf r = \Delta\big(\frac{1}{2} mv^2\big)$. For good historical reasons we have named the quantity on the left "work" and the quantity on the right "kinetic energy," but it doesn't make sense to ask for a proof that $KE = \frac{1}{2} mv^2$ unless you provide some independent definition of what kinetic energy should be. From my perspective, $KE = \frac{1}{2}mv^2$ is the definition. – J. Murray Jan 02 '21 at 22:47
  • I agree that that K.E. = (1/2)mv^2 is a direct consequence of W=Fd and F=ma and kinematic formulas. So it is a definition that is derived from more fundamental formulas, it can't be anything else if the fundamental formulas are true. What it is named in some language is not the issue here, what is relevant is the meaning of the values. But my point is that W=Fd and F=ma themselves are not derived from any other more fundamental formula, but are defined such based on intuitive logic and observations –  Jan 02 '21 at 22:56
  • @LucasFrykman - do you accept, say, that $F = ma$? If so, why doesn't that bother you? What's the proof/derivation of that? A formula may be derived from known facts, but ultimately, if you go back enough, at some point, the answer is simply that someone guessed it, and then it turned out to give correct predictions. You can't do better than that - you can't start from abstract math, derive a formula, and then be confident that it describes nature without ever checking that it agrees with observation. See this clip of Richard Feynman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPapE-3FRw – Filip Milovanović Jan 03 '21 at 08:07
  • @FilipMilovanović I was hoping for an answer on how you would arrive at such a guess in the first place. Also we need to organize theorems from guesses and the guesses themselves. You can't start from abstract math, true but often you can start from intuitive principles in physics i.e laws and try to rigorously state it in math. If we don't know where these statements come from, how do we know they are true? – Lucas Frykman Jan 03 '21 at 10:41
  • @LucasFrykman "often you can start from intuitive principles in physics" - well, yes, you'd draw on your previous experience of the world, previously established things, strategies that worked before for you or other people, the intuition you've developed, experimental data that is yet to be explained, etc. All kinds of things can inspire the guess, or hint at a direction, but none of that guarantees that you've guessed correctly. What feels intuitive isn't necessarily true. Which is why it must be possible to make predictions - so that they can be checked. 1/3 – Filip Milovanović Jan 03 '21 at 13:43
  • "how do we know they are true? " - You can never know with absolute certainty, but you can know that they work for a wide range of situations by testing predictions. The more agreement you have, the more confident you are that a particular formulation is a good description of an aspect of reality. Until one day a circumstance is found where it doesn't work, and then (1) you begin to understand the boundaries of its applicability, and (2) you have an opportunity to develop a deeper understanding and revise the guess, or maybe create new physics. E.g, look at gravity (Newton vs Einstein). 2/3 – Filip Milovanović Jan 03 '21 at 13:43
  • In other words, what I'm saying is - all we're doing is describing (modeling) relationships between things, how things behave, and how we can think and reason about that stuff. Because we're not omniscient, those descriptions are only as good as our understanding of the world is deep. A force is described by a vector, but that doesn't imply that what's really there is an invisible arrow attached to an object. It's just one way of talking about what's happening, and furthermore, it's not the only possible way. 3/3 – Filip Milovanović Jan 03 '21 at 13:43
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OK, derivation of the work-energy theorem from F=ma

The qualification 'theorem' is indeed appropriate.
If we accept Newton's second law as axiom, and we accept as axiom that space is Euclidean, then the work-energy theorem follows logically.

First two standard kinematic relations, valid for the case of uniform acceleration. The derivation will capitalize on these relations:

Change of velocity as a function of time:

$$ v = v_0 + at \qquad (1) $$

Change of position as a function of time:

$$ s = s_0 + v_0t + \tfrac{1}{2}at^2 \qquad (2) $$

With the above we can obtain an expression that is in terms of derivatives of time only.

(1) can be restated in the form of (3), and then you substitute the $t$ in (2) with the expression for $t$ from (3)

$$ t = (v - v_0)/a \qquad (3) $$

It looks hairy, but it turns out a lot of terms drop away against each other.
In the end you arrive at this formula:

$$ a(s - s_0) = \tfrac{1}{2}v^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}v_0^2 \qquad (4)$$

The above expression is also known as Torricelli's formula

The above is not yet physics; it's still only a kinematic relation.


By combining (4) and F=ma we obtain a dynamics statement.

$$ F \Delta s = \tfrac{1}{2}mv^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}mv_0^2 $$


Reminder: the unit of force is called the 'Newton'. The dimension are: $$ {\displaystyle 1\ {\text{N}}=1\ {\frac {{\text{kg}}\cdot {\text{m}}}{{\text{s}}^{2}}}.} $$



General discussion

Other answers to this question proceed according to the following strategy: define a concept called 'work done' and then show that this implies an expression $\tfrac{1}{2}mv^2$, that expression can then be defined as 'kinetic energy'.

In Dynamics we are accustomed to thinking in terms of accumulation over time. An equation of motion is a function of time; future position is computed as a function of time

The work-energy theorem doesn't fit that mould. The work-energy theorem describes accumulation over distance.

In the history of physics the work-energy theorem was recognized quite late. I think it was first stated around 1800 or so.


Generalization

Using (4) is of course not a general way to derive the work-energy theorem. The kinematic relations used are for uniform acceleration.

A closer examination:
(1) and (2) are closely related: when you differentiate (2) you get (1). As we know, diffentiation and integration are essentially inverse operations of each other. (4) should be seen as the result of integration.

Generalization to the more general case (acceleration a function of something else) is straightforward.

The derivation presented in this answer is not as general as it can be. I chose to present this derivation to emphasize: the work-energy theorem follows directly from F=ma.

Cleonis
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  • Ok then my question changes in to how you do you know newtons multiplied with distance compute joules/energy? Those are two completely different units. The work energy theorem states that those units are the same. – Lucas Frykman Jan 03 '21 at 10:43
  • @LucasFrykman Break each set of units into fundamental meters, kilograms, and seconds. You should be able to do that easily. – Bill N Jan 03 '21 at 13:24
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For classical mechanics the kinetic energy $T$ is defined as ${1 \over 2} m v^2$.

$ {d \over {dt}} ({1 \over 2} m v^2) = \vec F \cdot \vec v$. So $T_2 - T_1 = {1 \over 2}mv_2^2 - {1 \over 2}mv_1^2 = \int_{t_1}^{t_2} \vec F \cdot \vec v \enspace dt$. Since $\vec v \enspace dt = d \vec r$, $T_2 - T_1 = \int_{r_1}^{r_2} \vec F \cdot d \vec r$, which is the work done by force $\vec F$ between $r_1$ and $r_2$.

See a physics classical mechanics text, such as Mechanics by Symon.

John Darby
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The 1/2 is a matter of definition. If we changed it to some other unitless number, then other equations would also have to change, e.g., Newton's second law.

The proportionality to $m$ is not an arbitrary definition. We want a conserved quantity, and conservation laws are additive. If we had used $m^2$ or something, the we wouldn't have had an additive quantity.

The dependence on $v^2$ is not an arbitrary definition, and in fact is not even correct. It's just the lowest nonvanishing term in the Taylor series of the relativistic expression.

Newton's laws are logically equivalent to conservation of energy and momentum. If you start from either one, you can derive the other. Any experiment that establishes one is also an experiment that establishes the other. Any experiment that disproves one, such as experiments that show relativistic effects, disproves the other.

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The work done by a force is $\Delta W = \int_{x_1}^{x_2} \mathbf{F.dx}$. When $\mathbf F$ is the resultant of the forces in a body, the second law applies: $\mathbf F = m\mathbf a$.

So, $$\Delta W = \int_{x_1}^{x_2} m\mathbf {a.dx} = m\int_{x_1}^{x_2} \frac{\mathbf {dv}}{dt}\mathbf {.dx}$$

As $\mathbf x$ is a function of t, $$\mathbf {dx} = \frac{\mathbf {dx}}{dt}dt$$

$$\Delta W = m\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \frac{\mathbf {dv}}{dt}\frac{\mathbf {dx}}{dt}dt$$

Integrating by parts, we get 2 identical integrals:

$$\Delta W = m\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \frac{\mathbf {dv}}{dt}\frac{\mathbf {dx}}{dt}dt = m\left [\frac{\mathbf {dx}}{dt}\frac{\mathbf {dx}}{dt}\right]_{t_1}^{t_2} - m\int_{t_1}^{t_2} \frac{\mathbf {dv}}{dt}\frac{\mathbf {dx}}{dt}dt$$

And finally: $$\Delta W = \frac{1}{2}mv_ 2^2 - \frac{1}{2}mv_ 1^2$$

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The formula for kinetic energy is derived from the formula for work done, but the formula for work done is not derived further from any more fundamental underlying formulas. It comes from the empirical results of an experiment done in the 18th century. The experiment was basically dropping balls on soft clay and measuring the distance from which it was dropped, and the impact. What the experiment found is that the impact was proportional to the distance. So they came up with the formula, $W=Fd$. Then if you want to get the formula for kinetic energy, you have to combine the formula for $W$ with Newton's second law i.e. $F=ma$ and kinematics. The exact derivation is as follows:

$$W = Fd$$ $$F=ma=m\cdot\frac{v-u}{t}$$

If you replace the F in the first equation with the value for the second equation and you consider the K.E.(kinetic energy) to be the change in energy i.e. work done on an object to achieve its velocity from an initial velocity $u$ of 0, you get:

$$K.E. = m\cdot\frac{v-u}{t} \cdot d = m\cdot\frac{v-u}{t} \cdot \frac{v+u}{2} \cdot t = \frac{1}{2}mv^2$$

And that is how you get the formula for kinetic energy

For reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89milie_du_Ch%C3%A2telet#Advocacy_of_kinetic_energy

  • Omg did no one read my post? That is clearly circular logic since work-energy theorem RELIES on the KE equation. This is like A implies B because B implies A. – Lucas Frykman Jan 02 '21 at 21:58
  • no I did read your question, and I also addressed it. The formula for kinetic energy comes from the formula for work. But the formula for work comes from an experimental result –  Jan 02 '21 at 21:59
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    Aha thanks. Yeah I wished more physics textbooks clarified which formulas are theorems and which are experimental. – Lucas Frykman Jan 02 '21 at 22:07
  • I get your issue, I had the same question. I even had doubts about whether the formulas for work done and kinetic energy were correct or not. I still have doubts whether they are universally correct –  Jan 02 '21 at 22:09
  • Work done can be related to total energy. Total energy is the conserved quantity that arises as a result of time-invariance of the Lagrangian. So whilst initial motivation for energy was probably empirical today it is derived from very fundamental principles. Therefore your introduction is misleading – Cryo Jan 03 '21 at 00:07
  • Also, you are mixing vectorial and scalar quantities here. This will lead to issues when working with curved trajectories. – Cryo Jan 03 '21 at 00:10
  • The fact that total energy is conserved is implied by time-invariance, but how the energy is quantitatively defined does not necessarily come from that. Also how am I mixing scalar and vectors? Either way my final derivation matches with the currently accepted formula for K.E. –  Jan 03 '21 at 00:16
  • your equations are dimensionally incorrect and plain wrong. How is $K.E. = \frac{mv}{2} \cdot d=? 1/2 \ mv^2 \cdot t$? Where did this come from? Voting to close. – joseph h Jan 03 '21 at 00:28
  • mb there was a typo and I forgot to show the step where u is considered 0, I included that step now –  Jan 03 '21 at 00:31
  • This answer is very wrong. –  Jan 03 '21 at 00:33
  • like I said, I fixed some issues –  Jan 03 '21 at 00:35
  • @Neelim, given Lagrangian, you can literally extract energy from that providing it does not depend on time explicitly. There is some freedom to add constants, and scale the value - those are fixed by convention, but apart from that see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_mechanics#Definition. – Cryo Jan 03 '21 at 02:10
  • The mixing of vectors and scalars is in the fact that you are using the same typeface to denote force and acceleration (vectors) and work done (scalars). Work done is not a vectorial quantity. Using $\int \mathbf{F}.d\mathbf{s}$ explicitly makes work scalar - that's what dot product is for – Cryo Jan 03 '21 at 02:11