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Related to this earlier A common standard model Lagrangian mistake?

Here I am treating Dirac equation of Dirac field as QFT.

You may want to consider the quantized version or the classical version.

Now my question is:

Is $\bar{\psi} \psi$ its own complex (*)? its own transpose ($T$)? its own hermitian conjugate ($\dagger$)?

Naively in the Dirac lagrangian we have its mass term: $m\bar{\psi} \psi =m \psi^\dagger \gamma^0 \psi$ based on the standard notation in Peskin's QFT book (using the Weyl representation).

Since $\bar{\psi} \psi$ is a Lorentz scalar number (that depends on the spacetime point $(t,x)$) and integrated over the 4d spacetime, I believe it is a real number as a Lorentz scalar (yes), so $$ \bar{\psi} \psi \in \mathbb{R} (?). $$ If this is true, we may check that $T$ as a transpose and $*$ as a complex conjugation, these should be true $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^T=\bar{\psi} \psi ? \tag{(i)} $$ $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^*=\bar{\psi} \psi ? \tag{(ii)} $$ However, a simple calculation shows that: $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^T=(\psi^\dagger \gamma^0 \psi)^T={\psi}^T \gamma^0 \psi^*= \sum_{a,b}{\psi}_a \gamma^0_{ab} \psi^*_b= \sum_{a,b} \{{\psi}_a,\psi^*_b\} \gamma^0_{ab} - \sum_{a,b} \psi^*_b \gamma^0_{ab} {\psi}_a =-\psi^\dagger \gamma^0_{} {\psi} = -\bar{\psi} \psi $$ here $a,b$ are 4-component spinor indices. We use the fermi anticommutation relation $\{{\psi}_a,\psi^*_b\}={\psi}_a\psi^*_b +\psi^*_b \gamma^0_{ab} {\psi}_a =\delta^3$ which is up to a delta function for the equal time anticommutation relation. We derive the last equality based on $\gamma^0_{ab}=\gamma^0_{ba}$, so $\sum_{a,b} \psi^*_b \gamma^0_{ba} {\psi}_a = -\bar{\psi} \psi$. This means we derive that: $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^T=-\bar{\psi} \psi. \tag{(i')} $$ Similarly, a simple calculation shows that: $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^*=(\psi^\dagger \gamma^0 \psi)^*={\psi}^T \gamma^0 \psi^*= \sum_{a,b}{\psi}_a \gamma^0_{ab} \psi^*_b= \sum_{a,b} \{{\psi}_a,\psi^*_b\} \gamma^0_{ab} - \sum_{a,b} \psi^*_b \gamma^0_{ab} {\psi}_a =-\psi^\dagger \gamma^0_{} {\psi} = -\bar{\psi} \psi $$ here $a,b$ are 4-component spinor indices. This means we derive that: $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^*=-\bar{\psi} \psi. \tag{(ii')} $$

question 1:

I imagine that the Dirac path integral implies a $e^{ -i m \bar{\psi} \psi}$ phase with $ \bar{\psi} \psi$ shall be a real number. But it turns out to lead to a conflict between the equations (i), (ii) to that of (i'), (ii'). Is there a simple explanation?

question 2:

Is the delta function important here? the equality above is not precise since we use $\{{\psi}_a,\psi^*_b\}={\psi}_a\psi^*_b +\psi^*_b \gamma^0_{ab} {\psi}_a =\delta^3$.

question 3:

However, regardless the conflict of its complex (*) and its transpose ($T$), we always have its hermitian conjugate ($\dagger$) to be itself $$ (\bar{\psi} \psi)^\dagger=+\bar{\psi} \psi. \tag{(iii)} $$ Why is that?

There may be good physics intuition behind.

Qmechanic
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  • Not sure who voted down -- what I asked is reasonable thing about taking "complex (*)? its transpose ()? its hermitian conjugate (†)?" in which coordinates/spinors/matrix/space? -- please leave an answer if you find what I said is trivial or obvious – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 02:31
  • $\psi$ is a Grassmannian variable. All your manipulations are valid only for complex-valued spinors. You have to be careful about the extra minus signs you get when you move fermions across each other (eg. In your transpose calculation) – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 08:47
  • To be clear, if $A$ and $B$ are Grassmann-valued, then $(AB)^T = - BA$ and $(AB)^* = - A^B^$. Hermitian conjugate is complex conjugation + transpose so $(AB)^\dagger = ((AB)^T)^* = - (B^TA^T)^* = + B^\dagger A^\dagger$ so the formula for Hermitian conjugation is exactly the same as for complex-valued matrices. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 08:54
  • Thanks Prahar I agree with you -- your answer agrees with mine. I think the other answer by Gold only treats $\psi$ as a classical variable. Does Grassmann-valued count as a quantized variable? Or can Grassmann-valued be a classical variable? – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 12:44
  • How about the commutator ${{\psi}a,\psi^_b}={\psi}_a\psi^_b +\psi^*_b \gamma^0{ab} {\psi}_a =\delta^3$? Is the $\delta^3$ involved? Should it be equal time on a space $\delta^3$ or should it be a spacetime $\delta^4$? Do we need to worry about the $\delta$ function? could you be so kind to write an answer? (I think Gold answer may be partial only.) – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 12:47
  • Grassmann variables can be both numbers or operators. When studying classical fermion field theory, you treat them as Grassman valued numbers (or fields). In the quantum theory, they are anti-commuting field operators. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 12:49
  • As your question is currently posed, you are working in classical field theory so you can treat them as Grassmann valued numbers. You do not need to worry about the Dirac delta function. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 12:51
  • Should we also treat as Grassman valued numbers (as classical fields) in the path integral? So we just sum over the Grassman valued numbers at the end $\int [D ]$? – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 12:52
  • yes. In the path integral, they are Grassmann valued fields. The integration rules for such fields are very very different from the usual ones for bosonic fields so you should look those up. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 12:53
  • It looks to me that $\bar{\psi} \psi$ is a number instead of a matrix. But I find it weird that $(\bar{\psi} \psi)^T=-\bar{\psi} \psi$ and $(\bar{\psi} \psi)^*=-\bar{\psi} \psi$, only $(\bar{\psi} \psi)^\dagger=+\bar{\psi} \psi$. Should we treat $\bar{\psi} \psi$ as a real number or imaginary number? or Grassman valued real number? – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 13:06
  • Could you also explain $()^∗=−^∗^∗$? I find in Peskin eq 9.65, he wrote $$(\theta \eta)^* = \eta^* \theta^= -\theta^ \eta^*$$ why is that? – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 13:25

2 Answers2

1

Well, by definition we have, $$\bar \psi = \psi^\dagger \gamma^0=(\psi^T)^\ast \gamma^0\tag{1}.$$

Now, $\psi$ is a $4\times 1$-matrix, so $\psi^T$ is a $1\times 4$-matrix. Clearly $(\psi^T)^\ast$ will also have the same dimensionality. Since $\gamma^0$ is a $4\times 4$-matrix it follows $(\psi^T)^\ast\gamma^0$ is again a $1\times 4$-matrix. So this establishes that $\bar \psi$ is just a row vector.

In that case $\bar \psi \psi$ is a row vector times a column vector. The result is a $1\times 1$-matrix, or just a number. This by itself already establishes that $(\bar \psi \psi)^T = \bar \psi \psi$.

So: Is $\bar \psi \psi$ its transpose? Yes.

Now even though $\bar \psi \psi $ is just a number it is expressed as a product of matrices and therefore we can use the following identity $$(\bar \psi \psi)^\dagger = \psi^\dagger \bar \psi^\dagger = \psi^\dagger (\psi^\dagger \gamma^0)^\dagger = \psi^\dagger(\gamma^0)^\dagger \psi = \psi^\dagger \gamma^0 \psi = \bar \psi \psi\tag{2}$$

where we have used that $\gamma^0$ is hermitian.

So: Is $\bar \psi \psi$ its hermitian conjugate? Yes.

Finally combining the two we answer the other question: Indeed we have that $$(\bar \psi \psi)^\ast = [(\bar \psi \psi)^T]^\ast = (\bar \psi \psi)^\dagger = \bar \psi \psi\tag{3}.$$

So: Is $\bar \psi \psi$ its complex conjugate? Yes.

Gold
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In classical field theory, $\psi$ is a Grassmann-valued field so you have to be super careful with complex conjugation and transpose. If $A$ and $B$ are Grassmann-valued matrices, then $$ (AB)^T = - B^TA^T , \qquad (AB)^* = - A^* B^* , \qquad (AB)^\dagger = + B^\dagger A^\dagger $$ As a comparison, for complex-valued matrices, the corresponding formulae are $$ (AB)^T = + B^TA^T , \qquad (AB)^* = + A^* B^* , \qquad (AB)^\dagger = + B^\dagger A^\dagger $$ If you keep track of these extra minus signs, you will find that ${\bar \psi} \psi$ is a real-valued number.

Prahar
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  • I think ¯ is a real valued Grassman number? thanks! – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 13:55
  • Product of two Grassmann numbers is a complex number so ${\bar \psi} \psi$ is real-valued. It is NOT Grassmann-valued. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 13:56
  • But I thought that only $\int [D {\psi}][D \bar{\psi}]¯$ or $\int [D {\psi}][D \bar{\psi}] \exp(a ¯)$ gives a number (NOT Grassmann)? The $¯$ is still a real valued Grassman number? – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 13:58
  • Product of two Grassmann numbers commutes with ALL other numbers (complex or Grassmann). Therefore, it is not a Grassmann number (Grassmann numbers ANTICOMMUTE with other Grassmann numbers). $(\theta \eta) \psi = - \theta \psi \eta = + \psi ( \theta \eta)$. Thus, $\theta\eta$ commutes with $\psi$. This implies that $\theta\eta$ is a complex number. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 14:01
  • The action has to be a real number, right? How can you have a term of the form ${\bar \psi} \psi$ in the action if it's not real?!?!? – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 14:02
  • The product of two Grassmann numbers is certainly NOT in general a complex number. It may commute with all Grassmann numbers, but it is still an indeterminate algebraic object which you cannot assign a complex value to. – Zack Mar 29 '22 at 14:05
  • @Zack - I agree. – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 14:25
  • So does ¯ have to be a real number after all in the action? Or shall ¯ be an algebraic object assigned a real value – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 15:39
  • hi all, although I agree with your definition resolves the puzzle here -- I am still puzzled by why the definition is that. Please kindly see https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/701240/310987 could you clarify why $(\theta \eta)^* = \eta^* \theta^= -\theta^ \eta^$ is true? I prove the other way: $(\theta \eta)^ = +\theta^* \eta^*$ – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 16:45
  • what is your opinion about Gold's answer below? It looks that Gold avoid some calculations. – Марина Marina S Mar 29 '22 at 18:39
  • @МаринаMarinaS - His answer is absolutely correct and he has not avoided any calculations. It's an alternative approach to your question and is completely valid! – Prahar Mar 29 '22 at 19:52