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In a recent test I had to translate the following:

-- Отнеси кота на веранду.

-- Да уж лежит там.

My translation was:

"Bring the cat to the verandah."

"It is already lying there."

My translation was marked as failed, and I got zero points for that part, but no explanatory comments were provided.

For some reasons that are too long to explain, I find it impractical to approach that particular teacher and ask him about the matter.

I did my best to sort out the issue on my own, but failed. The literal meaning seems to be exactly the one I provided, and Google Translator offers essentially the same translation. There is no context at all, as the above excerpt of two sentences was given per se as a separate translation task in the test. I thought it could be some Russian idiom, but could not find any. My original translation seems to make perfect sense, and I do not see even a slightest inconsistency or anything indicating that my translation could be wrong. The task seems to be very easy and straightforward, and I am at a total loss as to what I did wrong.

I hope that you as native speakers can kindly help a humble confused student. What did I do wrong?

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Mitsuko
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    giving riddles as an exercise and then failing students for not resolving them correctly doesn't seem like a honest practice becoming of a Uni, you may want to appeal the score if such procedure is envisaged – Баян Купи-ка Aug 21 '19 at 10:48
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    @БаянКупи-ка : As Quassnoi pointed out below, it seems to be about a snake. If this is indeed the key, I am pissed off by the teacher. I am writing an email to him now. – Mitsuko Aug 21 '19 at 10:53
  • Has the task actually been to translate from Russian into English (or was it Japanese)? – tum_ Aug 21 '19 at 12:10
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    @tum_ : This time the test was about translating from Russian to English. We must learn to flawlessly translate between Russian, Japanese, and English in ANY direction. – Mitsuko Aug 21 '19 at 13:30
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    Well, he's already lying there. There could be так in the place of the particle да as well. – Alex_ander Aug 22 '19 at 04:56
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    P. S. Your teacher might have expected the verb carry (lift and take to another place = отнести) instead of bring (just transport to some place). https://wikidiff.com/bring/carry – Alex_ander Aug 22 '19 at 05:10
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    As for the 'snake-wise' version, here's another interesting bit for exploration: Чуть свет, уж на ногах, и я у ваших ног. (Грибоедов, Горе от ума) Can уж be an uncomplimentary reference to Famusov? :) – Alex_ander Aug 22 '19 at 06:27
  • Can say that definitely didn't read it like a snake version - mm without snake version it sounds not 100% correct or more like old fashion way expressing stuff, but snake version whaat oO, no way. In snake version, it would be even more incorrect sentence, more illiterate, so your translation is legit, you have the right to imply it. As carry and bring aspect - it depends on the nuaces of english meanings/language, idk does not sound like a big difference to me. – MolbOrg Aug 26 '19 at 10:26

6 Answers6

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First of all, you translation is correct and I would not fail you for that.

That said, да уж лежит там is a peculiar, if grammatically correct, to put "it's already lying there" in Russian. Russian does not omit pronouns as easily as, say, Romance languages do.

There is a chance that this was a trick question, and уж in this context meant "grass snake". In this case the "correct" translation would have been "but the snake is lying there".

However, Russian does not usually word this idea this way either.

Again, I don't know why exactly your professor failed you. Your translation, given no other context, is correct.

D. SM
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Quassnoi
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Quassnoi suggested in his answer that the key might be the homonym "уж", which can mean "already" and "grass snake," and this possibility made me so pissed off that I got brave enough to sent an email to the teacher.

He was quick to reply and elected to respond in Russian:

Во-первых, Вы не учли разницу между "отнеси" и "принеси". Приставки используются в русском языке не просто так.

Что касается второго предложения, то переводчик должен видеть все возможные значения. Вы обязаны были указать, что второе предложение может быть понято двояко. Может, отвечающий хочет сказать, что кот уже лежит на веранде. А может, отвечающий хочет сказать, что на веранде лежит змея, и намекает на то, что это проблема. Ни один из этих вариантов нельзя исключить, и потому Вы обязаны были привести оба, с чем Вы не справились.

Наконец, Вы проигнорировали "да" во втором предложении.

В целом хочу еще раз подчеркнуть, что переводчик должен с огромным уважением относиться к оригиналу и передавать мысли автора как можно точнее, стараясь не терять ни капли смысла. Вы же подошли к переводу данного отрывка крайне небрежно и непрофессионально. Как можно с подобным подходом переводить труды русских классиков, стенограммы важных переговоров, контракты?

Надеюсь, Вы воспримете это без обид. Лучше получить снижение оценки в малозначащем тесте, чем провалить серьезное задание после окончания учебы.

С искренними пожеланиями успехов в учебе и профессиональной деятельности

So as far I as I understand, my translation should have been like this:

"Carry the cat out to the verandah."

"But it is already lying there." (The translator's note: There is an alternative interpretation, "But a grass snake lies there.")

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Mitsuko
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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Quassnoi Aug 21 '19 at 19:39
  • the prof points out - it's just a test of not much of a significance. (We had similar "jokes" played on us by professors too, btw. Not on English but on major subjects). I'm not sure where exactly do you see the disrespect? And I'm also curious on why Mitsuko did not elaborate on why she didn't want to contact that professor initially. There maybe something we don't know, so I'd rather not judge the other side without first hearing their view of the situation. – tum_ Aug 21 '19 at 19:44
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    for all his underhanded tactics his written Russian is impeccable, is he a Japanese? – Баян Купи-ка Aug 21 '19 at 21:33
  • i did not understand ДА as BUT in this sentence, it means IN FACT/YOU KNOW/YOU SEE: - Take the cat to the veranda - In fact/You know it's already lying there | It's already lying there, you see... BUT has a connotation of contest, dispute which ДА doesn't have – Баян Купи-ка Aug 21 '19 at 21:46
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    What I at once saw as a drawback in your translation was the interpretation of отнеси as 'bring' in the first sentence. It is much bigger a mistake than everything you could have noticed about да and уж in the second one. – Yellow Sky Aug 22 '19 at 00:45
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    “Carry out” wouldn’t be correct if you, say, sit in the garden. “Bring” is absolutely correct in this case. "Отнеси" doesn’t imply in/out or whatever. It means just “take it (wherever it is) and bring it (to the other place)”. – Abakan Aug 22 '19 at 15:48
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    @Quassnoi : Thanks a lot for such a detailed explanation. Indeed, students find the methods of this teacher quite controversial. Even a slight inaccuracy in a translation is sometimes enough for him to call the student unprofessional. I personally prefer a more positive approach to teaching. This teacher seems to believe that students should be taught by criticisms and discipline. He is very strict. Sometimes I feel that it makes a pleasure or a kind of sport for him to find flaws and inaccuracies and punish for them. Perhaps he needs it for his self-affirmation. – Mitsuko Aug 24 '19 at 15:01
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    The other side of the coin is that many students in Japan are lazy and best motivated by fear rather than by encouragement, so criticisms are very effective for many of them. I cannot tell whether this is a world phenomenon or a country-specific one, but negative motivation works better here if we are talking about students en masse. Many students learn things just to pass tests and exams, and therefore making tests and exams harsher is the best way to ensure that such students learn more. I am different, but students like me are a minority. – Mitsuko Aug 24 '19 at 15:02
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    @Abakan 'Carry out' has an excessive preposition, the simple 'carry to' would be OK. "Отнеси" (as opposed to "принеси") actually implies a destination, different from the speaker's location. The verb 'to bring' (unlike отнести) fails to narrow down things to a) another place as destination (one could think of 'bringing here to the verandah' as well) or b) method of transportation (walking the cat, etc. can be imagined instead of carrying) - two reasons why that verb usage is not exact. – Alex_ander Aug 26 '19 at 09:33
  • Thanks for sharing the response, or else it would stay a mystery. As Баян mention, his russian is impeccable. He intentionally set the trap on all levels and it may be harsh but yeah. – MolbOrg Aug 26 '19 at 10:39
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    your teacher is wrong. Да can be No, уж can be grass snake but to think that a native speaker would answer to Отнеси кота на веранду. as Да уж лежит там. meaning that a snake is there is nonsense. As a native speaker I am a bit pissed – user7808407 Sep 18 '19 at 09:48
  • @БаянКупи-ка : >> for all his underhanded tactics his written Russian is impeccable, is he a Japanese? << It was disappointing for me to see a racist comment here, as you seem to imply that Japanese are incapable of fully mastering the Russian language. Trust me, I will master Russian better than anyone else in this Russian SE. – Mitsuko Sep 28 '19 at 09:50
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    @Mitsuko I don't think that was a racist comment underestimating capabilities of Japanese. When I read it, I understood it as "Russians often write lazily and thus have lots of mistakes. Was this written by a non-native-Russian but highly-skilled person?" – Ruslan Sep 28 '19 at 11:58
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    @Mitsuko it was disappointing for me to see unfounded accusation of racism, i'm not an Englishman but i will hardly be ever capable of mastering English on the level of the native speakers and probably on the level your teacher has mastered Russian... i guess you can accuse me of racism towards myself then... charges of racism is an American thing, they do it all the time on the Web, this is their pet peeve, i would discourage from assuming their cultural peculiarities and bringing them over to our discourse simply because we both communicate in English, cheers – Баян Купи-ка Sep 29 '19 at 18:14
  • @БаянКупи-ка : Okay, I now see you did not mean a racist thing. You seem to merely believe that people cannot fully master non-native languages. My belief is different, and it is based on real examples. It is based on real people I met. – Mitsuko Sep 29 '19 at 19:35
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    this is not what i believe, but nevertheless it's pretty rare for adults to perfectly master foreign languages especially without living in the environment of native speakers, especially languages belonging to a totally different linguistic group, and every such case amazes me – Баян Купи-ка Oct 01 '19 at 06:42
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    This made me curious. What's the evidence for plausibility of such a dialogue? (— Отнеси [object 1] туда. — Да [object 2] лежит там.) In modern Russian at least, it sounds unnatural, unless said by an irritated person (in which case it better end with an exclamation mark). – Dmitri Urbanowicz Feb 11 '20 at 13:55
  • @user7808407 ironically it's an original joke of this dialog.Sad that noone today remembers that, it was a joke known in when I was in school ( late 80s- early 90s). Professor is right in some way.. Translation often got many underwater rocks - hidden meanings, connotations, puns which may account for mood, style or period correctness. Sometimes word change meaning over time. Let's take a phrase "box in a gay wrapper" from Mary Cooper's book, just 50 years ago. It was normal one, today it is odd, but translation should use some mundane analog. – Swift Aug 20 '20 at 08:00
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    @DmitriUrbanowicz in modern Russian we practically stopped to use shortened form of that particle , so it would be "Да уже лежит там". It still used as standalone "Да уж", which should be separated by comma. The phrase is one of many jokes\examples of problematic use of words and punctuation used to be popular. Just like "Казнить нельзя помиловать" (comma placement inverts meaning) and its English analog "He didn't run because he was afraid" (depending if you put in comma or not, phrase changes meaning to near-opposite). – Swift Aug 20 '20 at 08:10
  • @Swift: So how did the joke you knew at school go? – With an English explanation, please! – PJTraill Oct 04 '20 at 18:25
  • @PJTraill it's one of many. Homophonic puns were kinda popular. It was time of Stirlitz jokes, most which were nonsensical, but that's the point.Some even translatable to English:, e.g. "Certain italian plumbers are known to have multifauceted personality." (original was многокранная личность). But "Штирлиц выстрелил в упор. Упор упал." is untranslatable – Swift Oct 04 '20 at 23:55
  • А еще через веранду могла пролегать река Уж: https://gramdict.ru/search/уж ;-) – Sergey Slepov Jul 03 '23 at 22:01
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You already have more or less consistent answers for the first sentence.

Except, it is clearly about a tomcat (a male cat) and not a cat in general. In Russian, "кот" means a tomcat, it is "кошка" that may mean either a female cat or a cat of unspecified gender (see ex. here).

Missing the context, for the second sentence, I would consider the following:

If it was about the snake, it would be "Уж лежит там" (without "Да"). Or even "Уж сидит там" (yes, Russians say "сидит" for presence even for something that cannot sit or stand on feet).

It may be (with almost equal probability) either "the cat is already there (at the verandah)" or "The cat is already pretty much OK where he is lying right now, no need to deal with him".

fraxinus
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    'Змея СИДИТ там' is a very strange phrase from a foreigner. Russians never say that. Russians say: 'Птица сидит на ветке. Ящерица сидит на веранде'. But a bird and a lizard have legs. Змея, уж, полоз могут либо лежать, либо ползти. "Рожденный ползать летать не может" (бегать, ходить, сидеть — тоже) – Elena Jun 28 '20 at 03:11
  • https://www.google.com/search?q=%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%82+%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%82+%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%82+%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9+%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b – fraxinus Jun 28 '20 at 08:27
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For me your translations seems correct, at least in general.

I'm pretty sure there is nothing about snake. Also both кот and кошка can be used as generic cat, not only as male or female cats. I suppose that cat is more correct translation than tomcat.

But there are some moments.

Отнеси кота на веранду.

Bring the cat to the verandah.

"Bring" is "принеси". "Отнеси" - move away to some place and let it (temporary) to be there for one of the purposes: stop him from interfering us or find and place there to know where he is. I would use take or put instead, but I may be wrong as have no such good spoken English. Note that according to the next sentence the cat is not together with speaking people, so it can't be "take away [to prevent interfering]", it should be "find and move".

Да уж лежит там.

"It is already lying there."

In the context of previous sentence and using "да уж" for me is seems more like "already done" than that the cat came there himself and lay down. But it's also possible that she have accidentally seen the cat there and haven't placed it herself. But anyway she knows that currently the cat is there. Лежит may be treated as a proof of the fact that he made it himself, as it is somewhere near sleep and you can't guaranty he is lying if you put him, but actually I'm unsure.

I'd also like to move lying to the end as the most important is placement, not the pose. I'm unsure whether such word order is correct in English, but let's try :)

My translation would be:

- Carry the cat to veranda.
- He is already there lying.

It may be not perfect, but if I place it in Google Translate from English to Russian, it seems very similar to original:

translation screenshot

Note that adding "Yep" actually changes the sense and comma appears. I think, it's incorrect as it's agreement and the actual reply is "No, that's not needed". Maybe you can add opposite "Nope" instead: "Не, он и так там".

After I wrote all these things, seems like the only important difference is carry vs bring. Please comment, is it really so or there are some better translations of according to the other points I've wrote.

Qwertiy
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First phrase uses "отнеси" which is an imperative and be translated to "Take to/away". While "verandah" is direct analog of Russian word semantically, it's less commonly used in some English-peaking areas, where it becomes just a "porch".

I have no idea if it was intentional, but the answer can be read "But grass snake is lying there" as a pun and grammatical joke because formal speech would not omit pronoun in such case, but it would take a couple of minutes for a Russian to register that. First attempt would be read as awkward "But it is already there". If this was meant as a pun, it's completely untranslatable as most of homophonic puns.

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Seems that your examinator is wrong, because pretext "да" in this case (keep it mind that only in this case) can be ommited like English "the" in some cases because it's only optional figure of speech there. Btw we're using figures like this often to make speech more thick even in everyday live.

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