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Considering that the apparent magnitude scale is an inverted scale; what is the lowest apparent magnitude of Saturn that can be seen from Uranus. We are of course talking about when Saturn is viewed from one of the moons of Uranus.

Saturn is in a similar relationship with Uranus as Venus is to Earth. To know this could be helpful when attempting to answer this question.

Constantthin
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    The answer to this is far more complex because of the phase angle complications. – ProfRob Nov 11 '21 at 12:46
  • This is very similar to your previous question, if not a duplicate. – WarpPrime Nov 11 '21 at 13:34
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    I provided all the elements to calculate that as well in the first reference of my first answer to your question about Uranus and Neptune. Please read it before asking more related questions; a lot is in there. – Pierre Paquette Nov 12 '21 at 04:49
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    additionally, the resource uloh linked you to in his answer, that also is able to answers you this question. – planetmaker Nov 12 '21 at 12:16
  • Still a duplicate of your previous question. – WarpPrime Nov 12 '21 at 16:21
  • It is not a duplicate because that other question did not address this specific issue. – Constantthin Nov 13 '21 at 05:09
  • How could a similar answer make the question a duplicate? A similar question surely can, but hardly a similar answer. It wouldn’t be right to close a question just because an answer touches on similar stuff, would it? – Constantthin Nov 13 '21 at 14:24
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    It is the same question as your previous one. They both come down to “how bright is planet A from planet B?” The identity of the planet changing from one question to another is not significant in this context—not enough to justify two questions. Also, as I said, the first reference in my first reply to your first question gives you the tools to find the answer yourself. READ IT. And USE THE TOOLS. – Pierre Paquette Nov 14 '21 at 19:18
  • You may be right to a certain degree, but overall I think you are wrong, because the answer to this new and different question would be a lot more complicated, like ProfRob also pointed out. Only a few cleaver people like you can compute a thing like this. – Constantthin Nov 15 '21 at 00:26
  • I just took a look at that answer and I am bewildered about what “phase angle” has to do with “eccentricities and orbital inclinations”. – Constantthin Nov 15 '21 at 00:56
  • If your old answer answers this new question feel free to repost it here, – Constantthin Nov 15 '21 at 02:44

1 Answers1

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Leveraging Pierre Paquette's excellent answer and reference to Hilton and Mallama, the magnitude of Saturn can be estimated by:

$$ V = 5 \log_{10} (rd) - 8.95 - 3.7\times10^{-4} \alpha + 6.16\times10^{-4} \alpha^2 $$

Here, $r\approx9.5$ AU is the distance from Saturn to the Sun, $d$ is the distance from Saturn to the observer, and $\alpha$ is the angle of the Sun/Saturn/Observer triangle.

If the observer is located on a planet with orbit inside of Saturn's orbit, it should be clear that the maximum apparent brightness of Saturn should occur when the observer is closest to Saturn, since both $d$ and $\alpha$ are at a minimum.

However, if an observer is on a planet with orbit outside of Saturn's orbit, it certainly isn't the case that Saturn is brightest when closest, since it will be backlit by the Sun from the perspective of the observer.

Using the Law of Cosines, we can compute the distance between the observer and Saturn as a function of $\alpha$:

$$d(\alpha) = r\cos{\alpha}\pm \sqrt{c^2-r^2\sin^2{\alpha}}$$

Here, $c \approx 19.2$ AU is the distance from Uranus to the Sun. This allows us to formulate the expression of magnitude only as a function of $\alpha$.

$$ V(\alpha) = 5 \log_{10} (r^2\cos{\alpha}\pm r\sqrt{c^2-r^2\sin^2{\alpha}}) - 8.95 - 3.7\times10^{-4} \alpha + 6.16\times10^{-4} \alpha^2 $$

Plugging in values from 0 to 180 degrees for alpha, we get the following magnitude phase curve:

enter image description here

Here the x-axis is $\alpha$ in degrees, and the y-axis is apparent magnitude. It shows that the maximum apparent magnitude of Saturn as seen from Uranus is at opposition (perhaps unintuitively since it is also the maximum distance between the two planets' orbital paths). The value at opposition is about 3.228. As a comparison, Saturn is always much more bright from Earth, varying between -0.55 and 1.17.

Notes:

  1. For convenience, we assume in this answer that the orbits are circular and coplanar. Since both planets have low inclination and eccentricity, we wouldn't expect a very different phase curve from a more sophisticated model.

  2. The above answer is for the apparent magnitude of the sphere of Saturn only. The rings of Saturn can contribute significantly to the brightness of the overall system. Hilton and Mallama provide a more sophisticated equation involving $\beta = \sqrt{\beta_1\beta_2}$, where $\beta_1$ and $\beta_2$ are the inclinations of Saturn's rings with respect to the Sun and the observer respectively. One could get a higher fidelity answer using this equation, perhaps assuming that the maximum ring illumination can occur simultaneously in opposition with $\beta_1=\beta_2 \approx 26.7^\circ$

$$ V = 5 \log_{10} (rd) - 8.914 - 1.825 \sin{\beta}+ 0.026 α - 0.378 \sin{\beta} e^{-2.25\alpha} $$

Connor Garcia
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  • Thx. So are you saying that the answer to my question is +3.88 in apparent magnitude? – Constantthin Nov 15 '21 at 23:16
  • @Constantthin no, +3.228 – Connor Garcia Nov 16 '21 at 00:01
  • I don’t understand your chart. Does it say that the smallest apparent magnitude is measured at zero angle? – Constantthin Nov 16 '21 at 03:00
  • yes, the smallest mag is at zero angle – Connor Garcia Nov 16 '21 at 03:10
  • I don’t understand how that can be, Venus’ lowest apparent magnitude is not at zero angle, but at 39 degrees from the sun. Shouldn’t Saturn be in a similar situation in relation to Uranus? – Constantthin Nov 16 '21 at 09:15
  • https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~bds2/ltsn/ljm/JAVA/VENUS/Venusmot.htm – Constantthin Nov 16 '21 at 12:55
  • And isn’t it contradicting your earlier statement: “However, if an observer is on a planet with orbit outside of Saturn's orbit, it certainly isn't the case that Saturn is brightest when closest, since it will be backlit by the Sun from the perspective of the observer.” Or am I missing something? – Constantthin Nov 16 '21 at 12:59
  • @Constantthin Observing Venus from Earth is not very analogous to Saturn from Uranus. Venus/Earth closest distance is 0.28 AU, or 1/6 the furthest distance of 1.72 AU. For Saturn/Uranus, the closest distance is about 10 AU or only 1/3 the furthest distance of 30 AU. Also, Venus has some phase curve inflections due to scattering of sunlight by H2SO4 in the Venus atmosphere. – Connor Garcia Nov 16 '21 at 14:57
  • @Constantthin Also, recall $\alpha$ is the angle in the Sun/planet/observer triangle. So a zero angle for an observer interior to Saturn's orbit occurs when the observer and Saturn are closest. But a zero angle for an observer outside of Saturn's orbit occurs when Saturn and the observer are furthest. – Connor Garcia Nov 16 '21 at 15:02
  • By being furthest away from eachother would that mean to have the sun in the middle? – Constantthin Nov 16 '21 at 22:52