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First, let me set this up and then ask a general question. I'm just trying to give some context as to why I'm asking.

I'm working on my private pilot license and was practicing with my PC simulator (X-plane) this weekend. I was flying a Mooney m20j out of John Wayne (KSNA, which has two runways, 16R/1L 16L/1R). I took off from 16R and at about 300AGL I encountered a bird strike and my engine died (though my windshield was intact).

I was just about at the end of the runway so I declared an emergency (yeah, I've been talking to myself...) and said I was going to turn the plane around and land on 1R (so, the parallel runway in the opposite direction.) I was kind of panicking and had no idea what to do, this was just the first thing that sprang to mind.

I started the turn and quickly realized I was sliding sideways towards the ground, so I leveled out the plane a bit and ended up making a short approach on a taxiway, which I managed to land (though that may be down to the simulator being a bit forgiving and not me, really.) So the plane survived...

So I've got two questions, the first a little specific (though I'll try to generalize it) and the second nice and general so it applies to a wider audience.

  1. Is the process I described a good approach to a bird strike during take off?
    In review, I feel I probably would have been better off just landing straight ahead on a road or open field, but I thought I'd ask.

  2. What is the best way to deal with a bird strike or incident on takeoff that fails the engine?
    I'm particularly interested in situations where the plane is about at the end of the runway - if it happens right as you take off you can just put it back down, and if you're much higher up you have a lot of options because you can glide for a while. But right at the runways end, when you have very little altitude and no more runway... What's the proper procedure?

kevin
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Jae Carr
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    "if it happens right as you take off you can just put it back down" -- you don't have any choice! – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 18:56
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    "glide for awhile" -- at 65 knots best glide, the glide ratio is (generously) 10:1, so at 1,000ft, you have about 10,000feet of straight ahead glide, and less than 2 minutes to find your spot. if you turn back to the runway at 500ft, you have <1 minute, which is not enough to make a 180 standard-rate turn – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 18:59
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    +1 for declaring an emergency to yourself. Also for a pretty nice question but mostly the first one. – Nathan Tuggy Jan 11 '15 at 08:31
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    @NathanTuggy - My head was just so in the moment that declaring an emergency just kind of came out ;). The real strange thing was I was so "into it" that the bird strike seriously freaked me out, my heart rate was elevated for at least 20 minutes. And, last I checked, my simulator is still just pixels on a screen... – Jae Carr Jan 11 '15 at 18:27
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    The first question listed as related, http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/786/is-it-even-remotely-feasible-to-turnback-a-single-engine-aircraft-with-an-engine, is indeed very relevant here. The point is, you have to know the altitude from which the turn is possible and should practice it if you want to manage the required tight slow turn without stalling. – Jan Hudec Jan 12 '15 at 20:16
  • A comment above refers to best glide as 65 knots. This is completely dependent on the type of plane. I think 65 knots is best glide for a Cessna 172, but best glide in a mooney m20j is probably more like 90 knots (105 mpg). – Greg Taylor Sep 06 '16 at 09:48
  • Why would a bird strike take out a 180-200 horse power engine? That doesn't seem realistic. – CrossRoads Sep 01 '18 at 21:03
  • General rule of thumb: ANY aircraft will lose a lot of altitude gliding through a turn; if you only just took off, you don't have any to spare. The best you can do is a shallow bank to tweak your heading a little to line up with your chosen landing spot. – Anthony X Nov 09 '19 at 03:35

7 Answers7

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You will not find a "single rule fits all" but in general, on PPL training, you are taught < 700 feet, land ahead no matter what.

A skilled pilot, with good currency, in an aircraft they know well, in good conditions they have planned for and with enough altitude, might successfully turn around. Another pilot in the same aircraft with the same conditions might kill themselves.

The consequences of getting a turnaround wrong are worse then getting a straight ahead landing wrong and, by turning around, you might very well put someone else at risk. You have much better prospects mushing down straight and level into those trees ahead than stalling out of a turn in an attempt to get back to somewhere you may or may not make.

Forget the flight sim heroics. Nose down aggressively for best glide (you should already know what that looks like!), then start looking, or even better, go for the area you know is good because you pre-planned for an EFATO.

Bottom line, when you do start training (good luck!), do whatever you are trained to do.

Simon
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  • Excellent, thank you! – Jae Carr Jan 10 '15 at 18:22
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    @rbp I do not agree with a couple of apsects of your edit, one factual, one grammatical so I have made further edits. You do NOT pitch for best glide first. The training should be instinctive for initial actions and that is nose down aggressively, then adjust for best glide. – Simon Jan 10 '15 at 19:20
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    "If an actual engine failure should occur immediately after takeoff and before a safe maneuvering altitude is attained, it is usually inadvisable to attempt to turn back to the field from where the takeoff was made. Instead, it is safer to immediately establish the proper glide attitude, and select a field directly ahead or slightly to either side of the takeoff path."

    http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/airplane_handbook/media/faa-h-8083-3a-7of7.pdf

     – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 19:27
  • pushing the nose down aggressively will result in a plunge, which will cost you precious attitude. didn't your CFI cover this in stall recovery? – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 19:29
  • Flight training says "nose down" to avoid a stall and look ahead for a good landing field. You should probably aim at something like best glide, if you know the aircraft, but your number one priority is not get into a stall, because that's the end of it at these altitudes... – SentryRaven Jan 10 '15 at 19:30
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    if you don't know what Vbestglide airspeed and attitude is, you're not qualified in the aircraft – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 19:32
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    @rbp Agreed, but that's not how PPLs are trained. High power, steep attitude, engine fails. Instant panic. Now what was that speed again? And let me push the nose down until the sight picture is correct. Nope, correct IA is nose down aggressively, then sort it out. – Simon Jan 10 '15 at 19:34
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    while you're "sorting it out" 400 feet below me, i've already got my place picked out to land and am running the before landing emergency checklist (you do have that memorized right?) What you'll find, if you had any airplane time, is that when you're climbing out at 80, have an engine failure, pitching for 65 will keep you out of the stall region AND you will be converting the 15 kts of airspeed into a little more altitude. if you pitch the nose down aggressively, you'll find you've just lost 400ft and you're doing 80+kts again. – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 19:48
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    "sample takeoff briefing that I would use in a single-engine aircraft: This will be a normal takeoff. We will departing on runway 24 with an initial altitude of 3,000. Vr is 50 and Vy is 67. If we have any problems before rotation or with adequate runway remaining after liftoff, we will abort. Standard emergency procedures will be used in the event of engine failure without adequate runway remaining. Best glide is 65 KIAS. We won’t even think about returning to this airport unless we are at 1,000 AGL. Any questions or comments?" http://www.askacfi.com/618/sample-takeoff-briefing.htm – rbp Jan 10 '15 at 19:55
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    I was taught that if you have an engine failure on takeoff you race the tachometer needle down to zero while simultaneously looking for the landing spot you picked ahead of time (you do know where you're putting the plane, at least at your home field, right?). If you drill engine failures in takeoff configuration at altitude you'll find it is a pretty aggressive push to go from a Vy climb to best glide speed, and you should do that until you have a feel for what the "push" should be. It's not easy to push too hard, but you don't want to push so hard you accelerate through best glide speed. – voretaq7 Jan 11 '15 at 05:17
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    @voretaq7 if by "aggressively" you mean "swiftly" I'm all for it. the interesting thing about Cessnas and Pipers is that Vbestglide is about 5 knots above Vx. In a Cherokee 180, Vx is 76 and best glide is 80. In the 172, Vx is 60 and best glide is 65. Glider pilots will understand this immediately because of polars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_curve_%28aerodyamics%29 – rbp Jan 11 '15 at 15:06
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    @rbp exactly - In light planes where Vg and Vy are the same (or very close) you're likely either at or below best glide speed on takeoff. If you don't push the nose over immediately when the engine stops your airspeed WILL decay well below best glide speed pretty much instantly. If that happens you're sacrificing distance the same as if you push too aggressively (and if you don't push the nose over heading for a stall that will cost you even more distance/altitude). – voretaq7 Jan 12 '15 at 02:28
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    Mostly this argument is funny to me because you all agree and mostly you're arguing semantics....just fyi. I read the initial answer to mean "nose down aggressively to best glide", but hey... – Jae Carr Jan 12 '15 at 08:08
  • I think it's worth making explicit that the reason for the engine failure is largely irrelevant. In other words, the whole "bird strike" part of the question just doesn't matter. If your engine quits at low altitude you will be spending your effort on landing safely and not on figuring out why it quit; that can be done after you're safely on the ground. – jbg Jul 24 '22 at 14:44
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A real life emergency is not a chance for trying unnecessary risky moves, especially new ones.

One of the AOPA seminars (I forgot which one) actually mentioned such a situation: an engine failure very shortly after take off in a GA plane. They did some tests in Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004, executing the 180 turn with varying degrees of bank. In the sim, if you bank steep enough (at least 60, or even 75), you have a good chance of making it to the runway. But then...

In real life, when you bank, you increase the stall speed. Worse, if you feel you can't make the turn, you may be prompted to pull back, increasing your stall speed even further. Now, you end up with a accelerated stall at a steep bank, engine failure, and very little altitude to work with!!

The best approach is to try at perhaps 3000 feet. Apply takeoff power, pitch up to take off attitude, then pull back throttle to simulate a sudden loss of power (don't forget to clear the area of traffic beforehand). Work out how much altitude is necessary to execute the turn, which varies from airplane to airplane.

When flying, it is best if you have a predetermined turn/no-turn altitude. If you don't know, either figure it out or ask your instructor. There is very little altitude, and very little time to think. If you're below that altitude, don't think about it, land straight ahead.

My instructor, who is an aerobatic pilot, can perform a "stall turn" (a.k.a. "hammer head") to turn the plane around. If executed correctly, the plane should end up in the opposite direction with almost no lost of altitude or speed. Bear in mind, though, this is because he has done this many many times, so he is confident to execute it a low altitude. Do not try this if you have never done it!

kevin
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    When I took the SIMCOM course for the PC-12, we practiced upwind engine failures from 800ft, which had been successfully accomplished in real life. It took a few tries, but it was certainly doable. The current literature from Pilatus says its possible from 1,000ft, and I would concur. http://www.pilatusowners.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Summer2011_POPA_Magazine.pdf (page 13-15) – rbp Jan 11 '15 at 14:46
  • Depends on piloting skills and experience I guess. If I were to take up a new (no previous experience) airplane and test it, I'd want at least 2000 ft. Not that I intend, but just in case I managed to stall it (or even worse spin)... – kevin Jan 11 '15 at 16:16
3

It has never happened to me, but in Spain we have a surplus of birds of all sizes, and the big vultures do usually insist in their right-of-way...

I believe that the first thing to do after a birdstrike is to try to keep calm and continue flying the plane straight and level. If the engine and the controls work, you should try to find a good place to land, but keep calm, above all, and fly the plane. If there is clear structural damage, you should land immediately, on any not-too-bad place you may find ahead, but it's better not to be picky... And don't forget to radio a mayday...

xxavier
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3

Most times when there is a birdstrike in a propeller aircraft, the engine won't fail (I've never heard of it happening). However, a proper takeoff briefing should be done prior to every takeoff with ANY crewmember, this includes the flight instructor and student. My takeoff briefing in the Cessna 172 was, "Rotation speed is 55 knots, if engine failure prior to 55 knots, we will stop on the runway. If there is an engine failure above 55 knots and we are airborne, we will reland if there is enough runway remaining. If not enough runway remaining and we are below 1,000 feet AGL, we will land straight ahead. Anything above 1,000 feet we will look for other fields, most likely returning to the airport. Questions?"

Now I want to point out that I've practiced engine failures in a Piper Archer (similar v-speeds to the Cessna 172) on the upwind leg. At 700 feet AGL, I reduced power to idle immediately turned around and made the field. However, in the event of an actual engine failure, I would never turn around below 1,000 feet AGL. This is due to a couple of reasons. Firstly, when I "killed" the engine at 700 feet AGL, I immediately turned towards the field. I did not allow time for my brain to process what had happened and made the decision like I would in an actual engine failure. In addition, I took off with an 11-knot headwind which helped me keep close to the runway on the upwind leg and helped push me back to the runway when returning. I'm not sure if I would have made the runway in a calm wind scenario. I also tried the same failure at 700 feet AGL with a tailwind departure. This made an 11-knot tailwind on the upwind leg and 11-knot headwind on the return. I would not have made the runway and had to add power to keep me from landing in the grass about 500 feet from the runway edge. Lastly, even with the airplane at idle power, it is still producing some, very little I will admit, but some forward thrust. So I'm sure this little boost of thrust helped me return to the runway.

I would like to add I've seen people with engine failures in real life, that made the runway from 1,000 feet AGL or better in single-engine aircraft. Also, I witnessed first hand a multi-engine airplane try to turn around at about 800 feet AGL and entered a VMC roll and crashed nose first into the ground killing everyone on board. Moral of the story, practice for every scenario and do what you think you and the aircraft are capable of. Your job as a pilot is not to save the aircraft, your job is to keep the people on the plane alive. So don't try to make a runway if you know you can't.

Joseph
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The situation you describe is an engine failure on takeoff and your response is going to depend on the glide characteristics of the airplane you are flying. Most light aircraft require about 1000’ of altitude AGL before safely attempting a turn to a landing site 180° from current heading. Attempting to do otherwise leaves insufficient altitude available to execute the turn in. Worse yet, pilots have a tendency to pitch for the desired landing site and/or increase their angle of bank in order to expedite the turn, often resulting in an invariably fatal stall/spin accident at low altitude.

The general procedure for an engine failure (and it should be part of a before takeoff briefing) is as follows.

1) DON’T PANIC; FLY THE AIRPLANE!

2) If engine failure occurs >3000 ft AGL, attempt emergency engine restart procedure checklist, if <3000 ft AGL commit to a forced landing.

3) Pitch for best glide speed. At low altitudes in a climb you may have to do this very rapidly to prevent a stall.

4) GEAR - down and locked

5) THROTTLE - idle

6) PROPELLER CONTROL - max pitch/min speed

7) MIXTURE - Idle cutoff

8) IGNITION - Off

9) FUEL SELECTOR - OFF

10) FLAPS - as required to make landing site

11) Select Landing site: 0-300ft AGL land straight ahead, 300-600ft AGL select site +/-30° off the nose, 600-900ft AGL select site +/-90° off the nose, >1000ft AGL select site anywhere in vicinity of airplane within gliding distance including returning to the departure airfield, if able.

12) ATC - Declare an emergency and state intentions

13) IF TIME AND WORKLOAD PERMIT, complete ENGINE FAILURE ON TAKEOFF and/or FORCED LANDING checklist.

Romeo_4808N
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Treat the bird strike question and the engine fail question as separate issues. Like a previous poster said, most bird strikes do not cause engine failure.

I have personally seen one bird strike and participated in another bird strike. Neither stopped the engine. For our Class D airfield, the SOP would be to notify ATC (or, CTAF after hours) to warn other pilots of the danger. If the bird strike happens over the runway or other movement areas, mentally mark where it was so that grounds crew can search the area for organic and inorganic FOD. In some areas, the carcass has to be retrieved so that the species can be identified. Especially near environmentally sensitive areas or protected wildlife. Then, land as soon as practicable to inspect for damage and check all air inlets.

Now, if the engine stops, follow your engine out protocols and checklists. These should be memorized. Because, you won’t have any time when it happens.

A good memory aid is:
A is for Airspeed - immediately pitch for best glide. Then trim.
B is for Best landing area - be on a constant lookout while the engine is running. Head for it. Don’t vacillate between alternatives.
C is for Checklists - After A & B, then run your checklists (time permitting).
D is for Declare an emergency - while you still have altitude.
E is for Electricity - all off after landing is assured and configured.
F is for Fuel - off after landing is assured or immediately if there is a fire.
G is for Get Out - ensure your egress by propping doors ajar before touchdown.
H is for Haul something - after it comes to a full and complete stop, exit the aircraft a far enough distance to be safe from harm. But, close enough that rescuers spotting the aircraft will also see you.

If you can just remember the first four, make it muscle memory. You won’t have time for anything else.

If this is on takeoff, you should have briefed the best landing areas to yourself and crew right before taking the runway. Review the A/FD Chart Supplement, and satellite imagery in your flight planning. Ask other local pilots. Ask the FBO. Just be prepared.and know your particular Possible Turn altitude.

Dean F.
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Your general list of priorities will be as follows:

  1. FLY THE DAMN PLANE. Your aircraft's documentation will note a "best glide" speed, I suggest you trim for that. Smoothly. No need to make it worse by panicking and/or focusing purely on the engine loss.

  2. Land at earliest convenience. If you have the altitude - turn back and head for the runway. You may have to just do a 180 and land backwards (whether the winds are favourable or not), but ideally you'd do a tight circuit, suitable for your remaining altitude. If you don't have the altitude, pick a field. I mean that. Turning back will just have you land short, so pick somewhere nice and flat, and keep it steady. It's preferable to land on a proper air strip if possible, but if it's not, your ultimate goal is to be able to walk away from your landing.

  3. It is generally advisable to advise ATC (if available) and/or other traffic on the same frequency and in the same area that sh!t's gone down and you're going down with it. Maybe you get the time/capacity to do that... maybe you don't. Maybe a bird kills your engine 50ft above a very long runway and you "abort take-off" there and then.

More than anything else though, discuss this with your instructor and heed the advice. Under normal circumstances this sort of thing would be planned for on the ground, so ideally you'd never be in a position where you have to improvise. It's a good skill to have (I'd argue indispensable), but it's never something you want to have to actually use outside of a training environment. There should always be several layers of planning between your actions and figuring it out on the spot.

Kostadinov
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