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There's a good explanation of procedures for Class B, all of which makes sense since pilots need specific clearance to enter Class B: How do I "sightsee" in a class Bravo airspace??

However, I wonder how much this changes for C and D. While a pilot does not need specific clearance to enter the Charlie and Delta, the local ATC can still direct the pilot to stay clear. This in effect means that ATC has the same control over Charlie and Delta airspace as in a Bravo. However, what isn't captured in the FARs is what kind of rationale ATC needs to refuse a pilot request, and if that changes based on the airspace.

In short, can ATC (reasonably) refuse sightseeing flights in Charlie and Delta?

Pondlife
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Kenn Sebesta
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  • You do need clearance to enter class C and D airspace. – GdD Jun 21 '21 at 16:12
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    @GdB No, you only need to establish and maintain two-way radio communication. – TypeIA Jun 21 '21 at 16:18
  • @GdD- once you establish com with ATC (e.g., twr for D airspace, Tracon for C airspace) unless you're told to remain clear of the airspace you can enter. Of course following any instructions you are given. –  Jun 21 '21 at 16:54
  • There isn't going to be a rule "ATC must have this kind of reason to refuse entry". Regulators absolutely don't want pilots saying "You don't have a good enough reason to refuse me entry to this airspace" and ignoring ATC. If they tell you to stay out, you stay out. If you don't like it, complain later. – DJClayworth Jun 21 '21 at 17:35
  • ATC provides VFR traffic advisory service on a workload permitting basis according to the FAA 7110.65 Air Traffic Control handbook. –  Jun 21 '21 at 17:38
  • @GdD In the US, clearance to enter C/D airspace is implicit when you establish two-way comms. – StephenS Jun 21 '21 at 19:37
  • Right. The point is that if we're splitting hairs between having to ask permission vs declaring intentions which can be immediately overruled, it's really not a useful distinction. Maybe a follow-up question should be why the FAA makes a distinction between the two. – Kenn Sebesta Jun 21 '21 at 22:10
  • @DJClayworth there must be some established rule-book of some kind, as the gov't is specifically forbidden from restricting an individual's freedom in a capricious manner. The reason could be as simple as StephenS points out, which is that ATC doesn't have the time or confidence. But there must always be a reason, founded on the regulations, which can later be challenged in an appropriate forum. – Kenn Sebesta Jun 21 '21 at 22:13
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    @KennSebesta - As a former radar controller at 2 busy facilities I can tell you that providing VFR traffic advisory service on a "workload permitting basis" is a decision made by the controller based on his/her judgement considering the complexity of the current traffic situation. Many factors invisible to the pilot are involved in the ultimate decision whether or not to accept responsibility for another aircraft and provide advisories. Controllers have to manage current priorities and avoid task saturation. Capriciousness does not play a role in this. Respectfully, just my two cents. –  Jun 21 '21 at 22:35
  • @KennSebesta FWIW, I’d like to see that question. – StephenS Jun 21 '21 at 22:37
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    @StephenS https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/87887/why-does-entry-into-class-b-specifically-require-clearance – Kenn Sebesta Jun 21 '21 at 23:16
  • @757toga I agree with everything you say. My point, perhaps badly made, was that, as the representatives of a gov't agency, they have to have a rulebook somewhere. The FAR doesn't give much insight into what the rulebook looks like and when we might be within our rights to say that a controller is not giving us access to airspace which we should otherwise be entitled to. It's a question borne purely out of curiosity, as I have personally never had anything other than a textbook exemplary experience with ATC. – Kenn Sebesta Jun 21 '21 at 23:22
  • @KennSebesta - controllers follow the requirements specified in FAA JO 7110.65. This order outlines the responsibilities, standards, separation requirements, priorities, etc. that a controller must adhere to in performing his/her duties. ATC is complex and can take many years to obtain journeyman certification. Managing traffic workload is an essential element in successfully doing the job. –  Jun 21 '21 at 23:37

1 Answers1

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The answer is the same in theory: you just tell ATC what you want to do, and they either approve it (possibly with some modifications) or deny it. Since all VFR services are on a “workload permitting” basis, which answer you get may depend on when you ask.

The only difference in practice is that class B airspace tends to be a lot busier than class C, which in turn tends to be busier than class D, so that gives you an initial indication of the odds they’ll be too busy to work you.

Your radio skills also play a part; a busy controller may still be willing to take on a pilot that sounds easy to work while rejecting those that sound clueless.

All that said, if you call ahead (on the phone) and explain what you want, they can often tell you when is the best time and how to word your request (or modify it) to improve your odds of a positive response.

StephenS
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