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After reading this, we all agree "the experienced pilot takes over, lowers the nose, and the plane is saved".

Not bad advice, but what speed offers the greatest amount of excess thrust required to climb (not excess "power"). Is Lift/Drag ratio really highest at Vbg, or is it actually highest at Vmin sink? Would increased prop efficiency actually make an airspeed closer to Vx with flaps a better way to prevent a crash?

We all have learned that lift is less than weight in a climb, but could increasing Coefficient of Lift with flaps and flying Vx be the best chance to save the day?

Robert DiGiovanni
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    Related - https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/8365/what-is-the-difference-between-best-rate-of-climb-and-maximum-rate-of-climb/8368#8368 , https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/55355/why-is-best-angle-rate-of-climb-indicated-in-airspeed/55371 , https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/73997/how-can-best-glide-speed-be-lower-than-best-rate-of-climb-speed/74346#74346 (really good answer, and contradicts my comment above, for some cases), https://aviation.stackexchange.com/a/74004/34686 (similar), – quiet flyer Jan 17 '22 at 13:13
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    More - https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/21350/under-what-conditions-can-the-maximum-angle-of-climb-be-achieved-for-jet-and-pro , https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/420/how-can-i-calculate-maximum-rate-of-climb/12727#12727 , https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/53081/in-a-jet-are-vy-and-vx-achieved-at-a-constant-aoa-at-all-altitudes/53185#53185 , https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/77391/why-isnt-vy-lower-than-the-speeds-for-best-l-d-ratio-and-best-glide-ratio-in-an (question includes links to several more related q's) – quiet flyer Jan 17 '22 at 13:16
  • @quietflyer So, we are looking a Vx. Please take out your previous comments and give others a chance. (But Vx is higher at higher weight, and Vx/Vy convergence is a very good point). – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 17 '22 at 13:35
  • I guess the really scarey part is being able to lift off but not being able to climb out of GE. This is probably where "zero hours" began tugging on the yoke. Observations of the 1903 telemetry at Kitty Hawk leads to the same conclusions, and that Wilbur made 300 yards that 1st day by not trying too hard to climb. – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 17 '22 at 14:16
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    1903 telemetry?! – Michael Hall Jan 17 '22 at 16:18
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    Typically aircraft have a specific speed "best L/D" which is different than the other speeds cited, and it will increase as weight increases. The curve would be specific to the aircraft and almost certainly would be with flaps retracted. – theMayer Jan 20 '22 at 14:35
  • @theMayer this was the type of answer I was looking for. Vx and Vy converge at absolute ceiling (so you don't have to go that high, just find the V at a lower power setting). The convergence seems to be near Vbg, a little toward Vx, because of better prop thrust output at lower speeds. A V absolute ceiling formula would be neat. It would apply to "V lifting most weight". Slat/flap configuration would be dependent on type of aircraft. – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 20 '22 at 16:57
  • It seems one could argue that all the speeds converge at the aircraft's max ceiling, and an overloaded plane that can barely climb is essentially at its max ceiling. So the question should perhaps be how does the speed that keeps you air in this situation, compare (in terms of IAS?) to the speeds for Vx, Vy, Max Range, Max Glide Angle, etc that would be valid at the same density altitude for a more reasonable weight, like the max allowable gross weight under those conditions? Just brainstorming a little here, might offer some insight into a way to sharpen the focus of the question-- – quiet flyer Jan 20 '22 at 20:10
  • @quietflyer the ounce of prevention is far better, eh. I think the gist is the effect of maximum thrust output speed relative to lowest drag (Vbg). – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 20 '22 at 20:48
  • @RobertDiGiovanni Unfortunately, I think the engine is a confounding factor here. What are we trying to optimize? – theMayer Jan 20 '22 at 21:37
  • @theMayer we are trying to optimize the airspeed that provides maximum lift. It appears to be between Vx and Vbg, but, I agree that will be weight dependent (up to absolute ceiling for that weight). – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 20 '22 at 22:07
  • @RobertDiGiovanni if just looking at theory (which applies to properly loaded airplane), I'm confused as to why we are looking at an actually overloaded airplane to frame the question? – theMayer Jan 20 '22 at 22:28
  • @theMayer to help save it – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 20 '22 at 23:15
  • Re "It seems one could argue that all the speeds converge at the aircraft's max ceiling" -- well, I guess I meant all the speeds pertaining to power-on operation. Not V best-glide-angle. – quiet flyer Jan 21 '22 at 01:02

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Unfortunately, I don't think this question is answerable, at least not with a definitive answer, because the answer is that it is undefined.

In the linked video, we're clearly looking at an aircraft that is being operated well outside of its design limits (overweight, out of balance, possibly high density altitude). Talking about which of the V_sub numbers is best to fly in this case is absurd, because all of those numbers assume the aircraft is being operated within its design performance envelope.

I have attached a basic L/D chart below. Notice how the lines behave toward the edges. A plane being operated outside of the envelope will be off the left side of this chart, where the numbers increase asymptotically. What this is saying is that there is eventually a configuration where the plane is incapable of flying at ANY number. I think the plane in the video was perilously close to that threshold.

As a glider pilot, we have the idea of "best speed to fly," which may be minimum sink, maximum glide (L/D), or any speed in the operating envelope of the aircraft. Min sink is usually just above stall speed, but you're moving pretty slow. It's ideal for climbing in a thermal, where you want to move slow. However, if you're doing a glider race, you'll want ballast in the wings for extra boost to the optimal l/d speed, so you can travel farther at a faster speed.

If you're in an area of sinking air, you'll go faster than best L/D. Flaps add drag. We only want to extend flaps when we're looking to decrease stall speed and fly slowly, at the expense of needing additional power to fly at that low speed. But, the only guidance for an overloaded plane is to remove weight before trying to take off.

Typical L/D chart

theMayer
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  • Re: your comment: V best endurance is a powered aircraft. We can agree Vbg is best speed aerodynamicly, but excess thrust is higher at lower speeds. That is why V best endurance may actually provide max lift. With the 172, Vx is flown with flaps 10. Your answer may be applicable to jets. – Robert DiGiovanni Jan 20 '22 at 22:04
  • You'd probably need to be traveling at jet takeoff speed to get enough lift for that overloaded plane... best endurance is not going to be shaped like this, and won't have the aerodynamics taken into account. If your airplane will stall at anything lower than full throttle, you're stuck at full throttle and best endurance speed is the same. – theMayer Jan 20 '22 at 22:25
  • That speed is published in the POH for the aircraft. For a 172, it's 75-85 kias, and I haven't looked, but there's probably a chart to go along with it. Irrelevant if you're unable to achieve that airspeed due to excessive induced drag. – theMayer Jan 21 '22 at 05:58