If an airplane such as Boeing-777 doesn't do a flare and instead continues "50, 40, 30, 20, 10..." at a steady rate, how hard will it hit the ground? (Added later) Specifically, will it be a "hard landing" or an outright crash? How many Gs will it feel like?
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Sin 3 degrees x 150 knots around 8 knots. – Robert DiGiovanni Feb 10 '22 at 23:40
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1And how many Gs would people in the plane feel? Could the plane be damaged? – Latest Glitch Feb 10 '22 at 23:44
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Welcome to aviation.SE! This question is closely related, and this answer seems to include the information you're looking for (for a 747, not a 777). – Pondlife Feb 11 '22 at 00:10
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1As a reference point, Boeing aircraft are designed to withstand a landing at 600 fpm descent rate (source), which equates to about 6 knots. – ThatCoolCoder Feb 11 '22 at 00:10
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1So, as a practical matter, if you don't do a flare, the plane will crash--is that the correct assumption? – Latest Glitch Feb 11 '22 at 00:31
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1all together now: "Any Landing You Can Walk Away From Is A Good One…" – Jack Deeth Feb 11 '22 at 00:37
4 Answers
Too hard,... in some form or another, ranging from too hard for comfort to too hard to maintain structural integrity.
Feelwise for a passenger it's like jumping off the top of a household ladder. It is quite survivable, be it at a cost. It's a serious blow and it hurts unless you train for it.
It most definitely causes damage to the aircraft. The impact easily exceeds the tolerance range of the suspension, leaving quite some of it to be absorbed by the relatively fragile material of the fuselage.
A good example is the case of Speedbird 38 landing at Heathrow in 2008. Lack of energy made it impossible for this 777 to flare. Trying to flare would have made that aircraft stall, which would have been way more damaging. This crash made a lot of people at Boeing really proud. At the expense of the airframe, all survived, thus qualifying it as a 'good' landing.
This kind of accident is very valuable, because it is virtually impossible to put the aircraft's calculated stress resistance to the test that bluntly during certification. So apparently, you are far from the only one who would like to know the answer to that question.
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I’m struggling with your second paragraph… How tall is your hypothetical ladder? – Michael Hall Feb 12 '22 at 16:24
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@MichaelHall It's the kind of thing mom uses to dust off the top of the wall cupboards. About five feet. The aim was to indicate a blow that may cause injury to anyone but doesn't have to, depending on how fortunate or unfortunate it comes. The thing is, in this respect calculating any outcome is practically impossible. Too many unknowns. That goes for the airplane as well as for the passengers..The only aircraft I know of, that is actually build to take zero damage from an entirely flareless landing, is Mike Patey's Scrappy, but that's not an airliner. – Feb 12 '22 at 16:42
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Ok then, that’s a fair comparison I guess. Maybe worth noting though that carrier based aircraft are designed to not flare. – Michael Hall Feb 12 '22 at 18:27
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I will have to do research on that to either choke or sustain my natural disbelieve about something I know too little about, to be able to form any sensible opinion. – Feb 12 '22 at 18:35
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Well, do your research then, but better have someone standing by to perform the Heimlick maneuver! I have never heard of Mike Patey, or Scrappy, but I have thousands of landings touching down at 500-600 FPM so I can vouch for this first hand… – Michael Hall Feb 13 '22 at 04:43
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Actually, no real research is needed, just watch carrier landings on YouTube. – Michael Hall Feb 13 '22 at 04:48
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@MichaelHall With research I mean I want to be able to say you're right and I understand what you mean, without risking having to just believe you... or needing a Heimlich maneuver for that matter. Try Google Scrappy. It's extreme, hence examplatory and an absolute must to at least have heard of for any aviation enthusiast. You'll like it. – Feb 13 '22 at 11:44
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I looked up Scrappy, amazing little plane... thanks for that! Regarding carrier landings not flaring, I thought it was pretty common knowledge so I'm afraid I can't even point you to an authoritative source to verify my claim. I even have flight and landing signal officer manuals, but I cannot think of any quotable section that might say "don't flare" because it is a technique instilled as soon as you begin training for carrier landings. "Fly the ball all the way to touchdown" is your mantra from day one. The best you might get is semi-credible testimony like mine, and watching video. – Michael Hall Feb 13 '22 at 16:13
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Google says Scrappy is an American rapper, are you watching his videos? – Latest Glitch Feb 13 '22 at 21:51
It will be a hard landing, not a "crash". The normal decent rate at typical reference speeds of 130-140 knots is somewhere around 700 fpm. Aircraft carrier landings are pretty much that rate (you are basically descending into the water, but the deck gets in the way) but carrier airplanes are designed to take the forces.
Assuming you touch down on the runway (Speedbird 38 landed on grass, sinking at a very high rate, which ripped the gear out, and it's not really comparable), everybody will know it, you will probably blow tires, some passengers may have sore backs, and there is a good chance of bending something in the gear or in the structural attachments for the gear. But maybe not.
What will happen is the plane will taxi in or get towed in and go for a special hard landing inspection, specified for that type and which will have a dedicated AMM procedure.
This will involve going over the structure and all of the key attachment points that have possibly been overstressed, to find out if things are bent, elongated, distorted, cracked, etc. It could involve visual inspections, dimensional checks, and possibly specific Non Destructive Testing checks like X-ray, Ultrasound, Eddy Current, etc. to detect hidden overstress fractures.
If the plane passes the special inspection, it's good to go back on the line. One-time overloads on metal structures are not a problem if the overloads did not exceed the plastic deformation limits of the structure. In other words, if it's not permanently bent, or ripped, or cracked, it's fine.
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If a standard 3 1/2° glidepath is used during final approach and Vref for the airplane is there around 150 knots, that equates to an approx 750-800 fpm descent, resulting in a very hard landing. The airplane could possibly even experience structural damage as a result
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It will hit the ground with a vertical velocity equal to whatever its descent rate on the glideslope was. Descent rate, in ft/min, on a 2.5 degree glideslope is just under 5 times its ground speed (in knots). Simpler, take half the ground speed and multiply by 10. So an aircraft at a ground speed of 150 knots will have a descent rate of around 750 ft/min.
Actually doing the math, the numbers for various glide slope angles are as follows:
Glide Slope ---------- Descent rate (ft/min) (as multiple of Ground Speed)
2.5 deg ----------- 4.4 x Ground Speed (knots)
3.0 deg ----------- 5.3 x Ground Speed
3.5 deg ----------- 6.2 x Ground Speed
By the way, these numbers come from having to convert knots (nm/hour) into feet per minute. 1 Knot is 1.69 ft/sec, and there are 60 seconds in each minute. so you have to multiply the sine of the glide path angle by 1.69 and then by 60....
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