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Besides the fact that it's now a standard, why do American-English-speaking pilots and ATC say "Niner" instead of "Nine"? None of the other numerals are pronounced in an atypical fashion.

For what was "Nine" being mistaken that resulted in the "Niner" standard being adopted?

Monolo
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End Anti-Semitic Hate
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    Not all - only the properly trained ones :-) – Peter M. - stands for Monica May 20 '15 at 13:54
  • Hmm... I'd say the fact that it's a standard is why pilots use it. It also sounds a lot less weird to a native English speaker than the tree/fower/fife stuff. Those just sound like a non-native incorrectly trying to pronounce three, some unknown word, and five, respectively. :) – reirab May 21 '15 at 04:36
  • It's ICAO standard. And certainly with the US military. Actually using it is another thing. And if you've ever used shortwave to communicate you'd get that big "A-Ha". – radarbob Feb 08 '16 at 16:32
  • @radarbob Can you elaborate on the shortwave reference? – End Anti-Semitic Hate Feb 08 '16 at 23:15
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    Due to the nature of shortwave reception can be weak and/or have lots of noise. Speaking phonetically helps tree-mendously. And often we'd have to phonetically spell, e.g. "Whisky Hotel Alpha Tango". – radarbob Feb 08 '16 at 23:21
  • "Nein, the nine is mine". <-- a bit contrived, but it should illustrate the problem. – PcMan Dec 15 '21 at 07:16

4 Answers4

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According to Wikipedia:

The pronunciation of the digits 3, 4, 5, and 9 differs from standard English – being pronounced tree, fower, fife, and niner. The digit 3 is specified as tree so that it is not pronounced sri; the long pronunciation of 4 (still found in some English dialects) keeps it somewhat distinct from for; 5 is pronounced with a second "f" because the normal pronunciation with a "v" is easily confused with "fire" (a command to shoot); and 9 has an extra syllable to keep it distinct from German nein 'no'.

The phonetic alphabet is not a random selection of words. It was created very carefully taking dialects into account, so as not to confuse any of the letter with possible mispronunciations. Although they are "English" words, the choices were made with the world in mind.

As mentioned on the same article:

The final choice of code words for the letters of the alphabet and for the digits was made after hundreds of thousands of comprehension tests involving 31 nationalities.

Farhan
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Dave
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  • Where do English-speaking pilots and ATC say "tree" for "three"? – End Anti-Semitic Hate May 20 '15 at 04:29
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    @RockPaperLizard, it happens inconsistently in the U.S. I say tree, and about half the ATC in the area do as well. I can't say the percentage of pilots that do in the Pacific Northwest but it's probably under 25%. – egid May 20 '15 at 05:21
  • @RockPaperLizard Inconsistently in the UK also. I too use the stylised versions depending on quality of comms, perceived workload/experience of controller and amount of traffic. – Simon May 20 '15 at 07:49
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    @RockPaperLizard Germany as well. Germans struggle with the English "th", it often comes out as "sri" as mentioned above. This is why it is consistently taught as "tree" in Germany for aviation purposes, when English is used in ATC/(A)FIS communication. The Aviation.SE blog will have a series on stuff like this... we are working on it. :) – SentryRaven May 20 '15 at 08:57
  • @RockPaperLizard If you go through this entire video, you will understand the reason very well. – Farhan May 20 '15 at 13:44
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    @RockPaperLizard: Because the difference is subtle (more so than with "niner"), you can't really tell, can you? ;-) BTW, the reasoning is the same for Germans saying "zwo" instead of "zwei" (to distinguish it from "drei"). – DevSolar May 20 '15 at 15:03
  • That wiki para is completely unreferenced... – Matthew Towers May 20 '15 at 15:23
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    @RockPaperLizard I've known Irishmen who pronounce 3 as "tree". It wouldn't surprise me if the whole country has a similar dialect. – Gabe May 20 '15 at 16:00
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    Adding the extra syllable to "foh-er" and "niner" means that the vowel patterns OH, UH, OO, EE, OH-IH, AY, IH, EH-EH, EY, AY-IH, are all distinct even without any consonants. I don't know whether radio static played a role in the choice of phonetics, but I think vowels are often less likely to be misinterpreted than consonants. As for "t" versus "th" for "3", even if the ideal pronunciation were an English "th", some non-English-speakers might say something closer to that if asked to say "t" than if asked to say "th". – supercat May 20 '15 at 16:16
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    Surely, "niner" helps to distinguish 9 from 5. I'd've thought that most of the time, context would make it obvious whether you meant fire or 5 or whether you were saying 'no' in German or 9. But it's surely as easy to mistake a 9 for a 5 as it is to mistake a B for a D, say. – Au101 May 20 '15 at 16:41
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    @Au101 This is why they went ahead and dont use single letters by themselves, but have the ICAO alphabet: Bravo and Delta. – SentryRaven May 20 '15 at 21:42
  • @SentryRaven Well that's what I mean. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I would think at least one benefit of using niner is that it helps distinguish 9 from 5. In the same way that using bravo and delta prevents confusion between B and D. So I was just trying to say that it would make sense to get around the problem of having similar sounding numbers - 5 and 9 - by saying niner; much as we get around the problem of having similar sounding letters. Removing such confusion being the purpose of the alphabet, niner would be useful in avoiding, say, confusion between 5,000 ft and 9,000 ft – Au101 May 20 '15 at 21:46
  • @Au101 Hmm... I'm not sure about that. At least to me, nine and five don't sound similar at all. Seems like they'd be difficult to confuse, even on a poor-quality radio link. One funny (and kind of ironic) thing about getting in the habit of saying 'niner' is that I've actually had it cause confusion when using it in non-aviation circles (e.g. reading product keys over the phone or similar.) – reirab May 21 '15 at 04:33
  • @reirab I'm glad you mentioned that you don't consider "five" and "nine" to sound alike. I was thinking the same thing, but was too shy to mention it, because that opinion seems to be in the minority. The main similarity I hear is the vowel sound, and perhaps that's enough to cause confusion. – End Anti-Semitic Hate May 21 '15 at 08:30
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    Surely the "niner" dates all the way back to WWII? A lone survivor pilot coming back from the front didn't want anyone thinking he was a German. – DrZ214 Aug 08 '15 at 00:41
  • I'm really sick of people pronouncing three as tree. Sree is way better than tree. – Qian Chen Jun 08 '18 at 09:45
  • @RockPaperLz-MaskitorCasket: I think the issue isn't that "five" and "nine" sound alike, but rather that static bursts may sound similar to "f" or "v". Something that sounds like an "n" probably is an "n", but something that sounds like an "f" or "v" might be something else that was hit with a burst of static. – supercat May 20 '22 at 20:22
  • Just curious: what would be the problem of pronouncing "three" as "sri"? – Eric Duminil Feb 03 '23 at 08:34
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    @EricDuminil perhaps its too close to the Spanish si which means Yes, weirdly the opposite case of niner! – Dave Feb 03 '23 at 15:14
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The reasons I've heard behind the pronunciations:

  • Three / Tree:
    Some non-native English speakers have trouble both pronouncing and understanding the "TH" sound. Tree is better pronounced and better understood by all people, regardless of accent.

  • Five / Fife:
    Much of aviation has a military history. On a poorly heard transmission "Five" can sound a lot like "Fire", which is both a military command to "shoot", and an aviation emergency! "Fife" avoids that ambiguity.

  • Nine / Niner:
    German is a commonly spoken language, and "Nein" (pronounced like "Nine" in English) is "No" in German. To keep it clear that this is a digit and not a negative-reply, "Niner" is distinct from the "Nine"

Lampe2020
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abelenky
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  • I've heard that explosives/demolitions engineers skip "Five" for the same reason, but I can't confirm that with fact, only hearsay. – Steve V. May 10 '17 at 20:15
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    There's a joke of a german pilot asking "May I get local QHN?" ATC: "Nine, nine, nine".. "Und warum nein?" – gusto2 May 11 '17 at 09:36
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    I truly appreciate your answer. Even if partially anecdotal, it provides significant insight. – End Anti-Semitic Hate May 12 '17 at 05:54
  • „nein” is “no” in German. “nine” is only pronounced (almost) the same way. – Michael Aug 03 '18 at 07:38
  • I've heard explosive users skip 4 to avoid confusion with "fire". "Five" and "Nine" have the same vowel, so the 2-syllable "Niner" helps distinguish those two (as does the soft "f" in "Fife", which is more distinct from "n" than "v" would be). – Toby Speight Aug 03 '18 at 09:53
  • @TobySpeight: "Five" could also come out "Five-uh" whose vowels would be close to those of "niner". – supercat Aug 05 '18 at 21:31
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    At least in the Royal Navy, the word Fire is reserved for when a self-sustaining combustion reaction is ongoing on your vessel. If you want guns to launch things at someone, you say Shoot!. – Oscar Bravo Jan 14 '19 at 15:41
  • @gusto2 And nobody wonders warum the German didn't say "warum nicht" instead of "warum nein"? – Mast Dec 17 '23 at 13:14
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The standard answer is that “nine” could be mistaken for German “nein”.

Another possibility is that all the digits have a different vowel (or vowel pair) from each other except “nine” and “five”. Changing “nine” to “niner” adds another vowel sound, which may help distinguish them when radio reception is poor.

StephenS
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"Niner" is spoken for the numeral 9 to avoid it being mistaken for 5.

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    This would be better as a comment once you gain enough reputation. – dalearn Jan 17 '19 at 18:26
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    @dalearn, what is your basis for saying this would be better as a comment? It answers the question, and answers are frowned upon in comments. – Michael Hall Dec 14 '21 at 03:06