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both nozzle is 2cm diameter

one "rocket" has air pump which hold constant 5 bar

second "rocket" it has water inside and also air pump which hold cosntant 5 bar,(water column is only 30cm haight,so hydrostatic pressure is neglibile,dont take into account)

rocket diameter 25cm

How much is thrust in air and water case?(load cell measure thrust)

enter image description here

NOTE: FLUID IN TANK HAS SOME VELOCITY,SO PRESSURE IN TANK IS NOT 5BAR IN EVERY POINT!

2 Answers2

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One can calculate this from first principles. Consider a water packet with volume $V$ going across a pressure differential $p$. Kinetic energy of this particle is $$E=pV.$$ Water is incompressible so the mass of the packet $m=\rho V$. Since $E=\dfrac{1}{2}mv^2$ we can calculate $$v=\sqrt{\dfrac{2E}{m}}.$$ The momentum of our water packet $q=mv$. Filling in all the equations so far, we get $$q=V\sqrt{2p\rho}.$$ Thrust is momentum per unit of time, so we get $$F=Q\sqrt{2p\rho}$$ with Q the water flow.

This leads to the logical conclusion we can double the thrust by adding twice as many nozzles (but we'll run out of water twice as fast). For the air case, simply replace the density of water $\rho=1000\mathrm{kg/m^3}$ with that of air. For a given volumetric flow, thrust will be a lot less, as expected.

A simpler way to look at things may be a force balance. The internal pressure $p$ is balanced everywhere except at the nozzle. If the nozzle has a cross section $A$, we get $$F=pA.$$ This is independent of the fluid used, but looking at our previous equation we see that for a less dense fluid we will need a higher flow rate.

Note that all of the energy from your setup comes from your fictional ideal air pump, so while in your question your can just increase the pressure to get better thrust, the reality is that you will increase the energy requirements faster than your thrust will grow (because simply the linear vs quadratic relation for momentum and trust).

Addendum: I did a quick check to see what the exit velocity of the air should be and it's over two times the speed of sound at sea level. So unless you have a high tech convergent-divergent nozzle you're better off using water

Sanchises
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  • This is only true when the water/air is being expelled into vacuum. – JZYL Jul 12 '20 at 01:18
  • @JZYL p is the pressure differential here and is 4 bar. – Peter Kämpf Jul 12 '20 at 04:45
  • @JZYL The question also didn't specify if the pressure was 5 bar absolute or 5 bar above ambient. – Sanchises Jul 12 '20 at 05:54
  • @Sanchises,pressure is 6 bar absolute,you and Peter K. show thrusts is not same its dependt on fluid density,JZYL show pressure is equal and not dependt on fluid density, who is correct?? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 06:54
  • @Aeronautic I actually just amended my answer upon seeing the other answer. For a constant nozzle, thrust is the same, but for a constant flow rate, thrust increases with density. The answers are functionally identical as far I can tell. – Sanchises Jul 12 '20 at 06:58
  • @Aeronautic Exactly! The reason we use water is because we need less volume (because our bottle rocket is only so big) and because it is more energy efficient (so you either need a smaller pump or less compressed air to store the energy) – Sanchises Jul 12 '20 at 07:08
  • @Sanchises,problem is that VELOCITY of fluid in tank is NOT ZERO ,so 5bar is not in every place in tank... – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 07:14
  • @Aeronautic Sure, I indeed assumed 100% efficiency, so quasi-static behaviour. I think with a well-designed nozzle you should be able to get pretty close as long as the exit velocity of the fluid is subsonic. – Sanchises Jul 12 '20 at 07:19
  • @Sanchises,if take into account that fulid in tank has some velocity,what tank will produce greater thrust with air or water? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 07:25
  • @Aeronautic You're now in the territory of engineering, not Q&A. So my best answer is "it depends" but I think water will be better because despite the higher viscosity the velocity is much lower so the overall losses less. – Sanchises Jul 12 '20 at 08:15
  • @Sanchises I see your answer specifies pressure differential. Good to see both methods arrive at the same answer! – JZYL Jul 12 '20 at 11:14
  • @Sanchises,your thrust formula from pressure imbalance is F=pxA....5bar x 3.14cm2=154N,,pressure in nozzle is not 5bar,bacause fluid has high velocity,so pressure here is less than 5bar.. – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 14:09
  • @AeronauticFreek That's not the right thinking. If hydrostatic pressure is negligible and the surface pressure is 5bar, then that's the pressure throughout the tank, regardless of how fast the water/air is moving inside the tank. If the speed inside the tank is much smaller than the nozzle speed, then its effect is negligible (1/2Ve^2 - 1/2Vi^2 ~= 1/2*Ve^2) in Bernoulli's energy balance. – JZYL Jul 12 '20 at 17:02
  • @JZYL,here i am talking about pressure in nozzle not in tank,velocity of fluid in nozzle is very high,so i think pressure in nozzle is less then 5bar. isnt it? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 17:07
  • @Aeronautic Yes, that reduction in pressure is exactly what accelerates the fluid. Over the span of the nozzle pressure will reduce from 5 bar to 0 bar above ambient. – Sanchises Jul 12 '20 at 19:00
  • @Sanchises, ok so thrust in both case is 5bar x 3.14cm2=154N ? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 19:24
  • Try a third rocket with mercury. Instead of a load cell, just let all 3 run down a track. – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 13 '20 at 12:35
  • @RobertDiGiovanni I tend to prefer backyard experiments that do not come with the risk of mercury poisoning. But perhaps that's just me... – Sanchises Jul 13 '20 at 12:40
  • @Sanchises Yes, yes, increasing pressure (within safe limits) may be better. There are water rocket videos using plastic soda bottles. Makes me think it is more the momentum action/reaction than the internal/ambient pressure differential that makes it go. Would look into nozzle length and dimensions as well! – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 13 '20 at 14:03
  • @Robert Can you maybe take an introductory course in dynamics sometime? Your statement makes no sense at all. This is Newton's laws in their most basic form and I shouldn't still have to explain them. By momentum conservation for the bottle rocket to move one way something else has to move the other way (3rd law) and all this moving is done by forces (2nd law). Neither law is "more" responsible. – Sanchises Jul 13 '20 at 14:49
  • @Sanchises humor aside, I believe there is a firm understanding of m and v here without an "introductory course in dynamics". I was referring to the other answer, which held that type of fluid does not matter. Upvoted yours, now, would mercury create more thrust? – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 13 '20 at 15:46
  • @Sanchises, onece agian, is thrust in both case 5bar x 3.14cm2=154N ? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 13 '20 at 16:23
  • @Aeronautic I'm here to explain things, not do the maths for you. If you want anything clarified feel free to ask. – Sanchises Jul 13 '20 at 17:42
  • @Sanchises, i just use formula from your post F=p(internal prressure 5bar) x A(nozzle area 3.14cm2)...now with this formula(basic pressure equation) it seems very easy to calcuate thrust – Aeronautic Freek Jul 13 '20 at 18:04
  • @Aeronautic Who said it had to be hard? – Sanchises Jul 13 '20 at 18:39
  • @Sanchises,I read that thrust is F=mass flow x V + pressure x A,but your formula dont have part " mass flow x V" ..why is that? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 13 '20 at 18:59
  • @Aeronauti Where did you read that? – Sanchises Jul 13 '20 at 21:13
  • @Sanchises,https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/rockth.html – Aeronautic Freek Jul 14 '20 at 05:36
1

Consider control volume around the whole apparatus, and apply the momentum balance using the steady-state Euler's equations in the integral form:

$$\vec{F}_{body} = \oint_S(\rho\vec{V} \cdot d\vec{S})\vec{V} + \oint_Spd\vec{S}$$

If the nozzle is aimed parallel to the ground, then it simplifies to the 1D thrust equation, noting that the exit pressure is equal to the ambient pressure ($p_{atm}$):

$$T = \rho V^2 A_e \tag{1}$$

where $T$ is thrust, $\rho$ is the density of the flow right before the nozzle exit, $V$ is its exit speed, and $A_e$ is the nozzle frontal area.

We are going to assume there is zero loss in this whole endeavour, so the flow is isentropic everywhere, which means we can apply Bernoulli's to derive the exit speed (noting that inside the tank, the fluid velocity is zero, assuming the nozzle is small compared to the total volume):

$$V=\sqrt{\frac{2(p-p_{atm})}{\rho}} \tag{2}$$

where $p$ is the pressure of the fluid inside the tank.

Now substitute (2) into (1), simplify, and we have 1:

$$T=2(p-p_{atm})A_e=Q\sqrt{2\rho(p-p_{atm})} \tag{3}$$

where $Q=VA_e$ is the volumetric flow rate.

So the thrust is independent of what kind of fluid you use! However, it should be cautioned that this does not mean that a compressed air rocket will receive the same $\Delta V$ as the water one when their tanks are emptied. More factors, such as empty weight and tank volume, must be taken into account. For instance, the water rocket will have much lower volumetric flow rate than the air one, giving it a longer "burn" time.


1 Note the conclusion reached is identical to @sanchises' answer, despite the slightly different approaches.

JZYL
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  • Isn't thrust proportional to $\sqrt{\rho}$? That would give the water version 28 times the thrust of the air version. – Peter Kämpf Jul 12 '20 at 04:44
  • @JZYL ,problem is that VELOCITY of fluid in tank is NOT ZERO ,so 5bar is not in every place in tank... – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 07:14
  • @PeterKämpf, if we integrate pressure around all rocket walls we will get thrust,and if in both case is 5bar inside,doesnt metter which fluid is inside...isnt it? – Aeronautic Freek Jul 12 '20 at 08:38
  • @PeterKampf Not if I specify all variables in terms of pressures. However, the water rocket will have a longer "burn" time, since its flow rate is lower, with the same thrust. – JZYL Jul 12 '20 at 11:11
  • @AeronauticFreek The velocity inside the tank is much smaller than the nozzle velocity (5cm vs 30cm), so this assumption holds. – JZYL Jul 12 '20 at 11:30
  • @JZYL your mathematical derivations seem sound, but why would you think the water comes out much slower?. You are correct that the water rocket generates more thrust, and it is possible that viscosity may make the expulsion of water slightly slower, but it may be that higher density (mass per volume) carries the day. I was wondering if a longer nozzle would increase thrust for water, giving a greater distance to accelerate. – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 13 '20 at 19:49
  • Your calcs may be correct if it is just a hole in the container. Garden hoses can be interesting. – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 13 '20 at 19:55
  • @RobertDiGiovanni Because math told me so? – JZYL Jul 14 '20 at 17:01
  • So, lengthen the tube and allow water to accelerate before discharge. Might make math easier, discounting friction loss. – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 14 '20 at 18:13
  • @RobertDiGiovanni If there is zero loss, then all of the venturi effect has already happened through the initial opening. Elongating the opening won't achieve anything. – JZYL Jul 14 '20 at 21:41
  • @JZYL theoretically, but a converging nozzle with water might be worth a try. The water system is a bit like an internal combustion engine cylinder, pushing on a liquid instead of a solid piston. If the water is accelerated as much as possible, it will generate more thrust. (Converging/diverging will optimize the supersonic air). I believe you are right, the water stream will be slower. Amazing how the humble soda bottle makes a fairly good converging nozzle. Shame they closed this. – Robert DiGiovanni Jul 14 '20 at 22:33