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We had a very wobbly landing in Washington DC today with United airlines. I was curious what the maximum roll angle (left right angle with ground) was during it.

Other information that I'd find interesting to know:

  • statistics on what that maximum angle was historically for flights that landed safely
  • the pilot and co-pilot's names

Related to : How dangerous was the turbulence on this commercial flight?

Update: added angle name and pilot name as interesting data

Shadi
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  • Are you talking about the yaw angle with respect to the runway? Because I don't know of any airplanes that are even capable of recording that information (aside from maybe some research airplanes with extra instruments installed). – HiddenWindshield Jun 19 '22 at 02:32
  • Maybe the black box records it but that data would not readily be accessible. – Bageletas Jun 19 '22 at 03:37
  • @HiddenWindshield I meant the roll angle. For my purposes, any of roll, yaw, or pitch angles are interesting – Shadi Jun 19 '22 at 07:23
  • @Bageletas thanks. What about the pilot's name? – Shadi Jun 19 '22 at 07:24
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    why would they divulge the pilot's name? – Federico Jun 19 '22 at 12:55
  • Just ask for the full Karen. – 300D7309EF17 Jun 20 '22 at 05:41
  • @Federico why not? – Shadi Jun 20 '22 at 12:48
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    because there is no need to hang out dry an employee like that if nothing happened. Either an accident or accident happened and there is an investigation, and the investigator can access that data, or releasing such info is just detrimental to the employee that ends up being harassed for just doing their job. – Federico Jun 20 '22 at 12:50
  • @Federico thanks. I understand the security implications now. I also just found this page that highlights that the names are announced at the beginning of each flight https://www.quora.com/How-can-l-find-the-pilots-name-with-the-flight-number-and-date?share=1 – Shadi Jun 20 '22 at 13:03
  • maybe the first names, not the full ones – Federico Jun 20 '22 at 13:49
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    Few passengers are qualified to asses whether the landing was wobbly or the whether the roll angle was unusual or dangerous. – Dave Gremlin Jun 20 '22 at 21:23
  • @DaveGremlin one could argue the same for food/medicine ingredients, but it's still listed on the product – Shadi Jun 21 '22 at 08:29
  • @Shadi True, but with food or medicine, anyone could look up contraindications etc. do some research and inform themselves about safety. Flying isn't like that, you can't train up as an airline pilot then do some crosswind landings to find out what is unusual or dangerous. Even frequent flyers won't be familiar with things that are perfectly normal but don't occur often. I've heard people describe what they thought were nightmare experiences but were actually completely safe - missed approaches, crosswind landings, light turbulence seem alarming if you don't understand what's happening. – Dave Gremlin Jun 21 '22 at 09:00
  • @DaveGremlin Agreed. One of my listed points above is statistics about the distribution of these angles over a history of flights. Something along the lines of "the maximum roll angle of your flight was 5 degrees and it was reached in 1% of flights from 2000 till today with no crashes". Is such a statistic too far fetched? I'm no aviation expert, and I'd completely understand that there are many more entangled parameters, making it unfair to look at one parameter at a time. I'm also sure that it takes a lot of skill and experience to make any judgements. I'm not trying to replace that. – Shadi Jun 22 '22 at 10:22
  • Btw thanks for engaging in this discussion with me. It's very educational. – Shadi Jun 22 '22 at 10:23
  • @Shadi I'm happy to discuss this, I'm only a hobby pilot so I can't give definitive answers. The problem with the stat "the maximum roll angle of your flight was 5 degrees and it was reached in 1% of flights from 2000 till today with no crashes" is the still no crashes bit, as if bank angle is an indicator of a crash. Bank angles will be well above this when turning, and on approach the pilot may bank to stay aligned with the runway https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/22678/on-crosswind-landings-is-it-preferable-to-side-slip-or-crab-on-final-approach#22686 – Dave Gremlin Jun 22 '22 at 10:54
  • @Shadi Also, what would constitute a 'crash'? A wingtip strike such as this https://www.avherald.com/h?article=49b23c6e&opt=0 where no-one was hurt? Typically, AVHerald.com categorises events into Incidents, Accidents and Crashes. I've had a quick look there and can only find one Crash; a small cargo plane: https://www.avherald.com/h?article=4a88f341&opt=0 There seem to be lots of Incidents and Accidents that have resulted in a wingtip or engine pod strike but no injuries to the crew or passengers. That crash is very odd since the SD 330 is a high wing plane and was banked at 42º. – Dave Gremlin Jun 22 '22 at 11:07

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Yes, the type of data you are asking about does exist, but it isn't available for curious passengers to critique.

Most modern airlines have within their safety programs a means to record and analyze data and flag events that exceed certain parameters and are on the margins of safe, or "normal" operations. The event can then be reviewed in greater detail by experienced flight crews and safety experts with the intent of determining whether or not any procedures were violated. This is all done in the interest of improving safety, not for explaining to someone why a certain landing felt "wobbly".

There is some additional information in the article here: Flight Safety

Something would have to rise to the level of a reportable accident for the NTSB to get involved, and for the results of the investigation to be made available to the public.

Michael Hall
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  • Why is it not publicly available? Is it just because it has always been this way? – Shadi Jun 20 '22 at 12:50
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    Presumably for the same reasons your company doesn’t make HR records public. What good would it do? – Michael Hall Jun 20 '22 at 13:54
  • TBH I'm not convinced. @DaveGremlin above made a similar comment, and my reply was that the same logic could apply to food/medicine ingredients. But these are still made public. – Shadi Jun 21 '22 at 08:31
  • @Shadi, ingredients are made public because it is a labeling requirement. Companies otherwise have no incentive to list them. What line of work are you in? Maybe I can provide a better comparison that’s closer to your reality… – Michael Hall Jun 21 '22 at 14:35
  • True. I was only arguing against your initial point of "what good would it do". The incentive being absent from companies is convincing. I personally hope that some day someone brings in regulations to make this data public. We have the technology for it, and it's not something that gives away any competitive advantage. It just gives a clear metric for quality control, and more eyes on it will help catch problems if any (instead of giving companies a hiding spot by shoving stuff under the carpet). It could even be used for marketing. I'm a data scientist, but no need for an example. I get it – Shadi Jun 22 '22 at 10:16
  • Btw thanks for engaging in this discussion with me. It's very educational. – Shadi Jun 22 '22 at 10:24
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    Honestly, @Shadi, if you had full access to the information, what would you do with it? Would you complain that the roll angle on your landing was 1° greater than the average landing and attempt to sue the carrier/pilot because you felt a bit nauseous? Would you complain if it was 1/2° beyond the design spec for 0.5 seconds, even though the plan made it safely to the ground, that info had already been reviewed by the airline (and probably the mfgr), the aircraft had already been inspected & deemed to still be airworthy? – FreeMan Jun 22 '22 at 14:02
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    As a bit of a data geek, I agree that it might be interesting to have this info, but it opens the airlines, aircraft mfgrs, and CAAs to far too many lawsuit possibilities (especially in the USA) from uneducated passengers who expect everything to be as comfy as sitting on the couch in the living room with the TV dulling their senses and get "scared" by a "wobbly" landing that was nothing more than a light gust of wind, well within parameters... – FreeMan Jun 22 '22 at 14:04