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Is there any relationship between what we can call complexity and what we can call organization in biology? And if there is, what is it? Can we define these terms independently of each other or would the definition of one of them always inescapably include the other and vice versa? If the second is the case, what can such a relationship tell (or, at least suggest) us about life?

canadianer
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Yordan Yordanov
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  • I would like to draw a parallel between my question and another question here on SE pertaining to the same notion-that of complexity in biology, to show how we can shape a question in a much clearer and precise style and get more information about the same issue. Here it is- http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/13853/why-and-how-does-complexity-usually-tend-to-increase-through-time/57005#57005 I'm trying to show how the topic discussed there can be presented in clearer and more exact style if we concentrate on a particular issue instead of trying to cover everything in 1 question – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 00:31
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    I think if one starts out a question with a clause that includes "depending on the definition of the terms you use" one must be prepared to provide such definitions, otherwise it isn't possible for anyone to answer without using their own definitions and therefore making the question opinion-based. – Bryan Krause Mar 08 '17 at 01:09
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    Hi, @YordanYordanov. Complexity & organisation have specific meanings depending on context. For example, I work with sequences in terms of simple and complex depending on their linguistic entropy. Some people would call a protein structure complex if it was very disordered due to estimations of chemical entropy. Some people would call one cell more complex than another if there were more external forces interacting with it, others if the structures were more varied. Because of the vagueness of the term "complexity" in this question, I'm voting to close as off-topic. – James Mar 08 '17 at 07:06
  • I have edited my question. Are you happy now, @Bryan Krause ? In this form is it still "opinion-based" according to you? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 17:11
  • Hey, how can you put it on hold? I just edited it! What is the problem now? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 17:12
  • I and the others voted to put the question on-hold before your edits (I think @James gives a good argument for why, in addition to my own answer). I will review your edits - questions put "on hold" can always be returned to an open status after edits. – Bryan Krause Mar 08 '17 at 17:20
  • I will wait then and if you reopen it I will delete my comment and this comment, too. – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 17:22
  • Unfortunately I don't think the edits resolved the issues. Your question really contains a dozen different questions all going in different directions. "Can we define these terms independent of each other" - this is really just an opinion question. Sure, someone could do so if they wanted to, because they are choosing the definitions. I could define complexity as "number of photons emitted" if I wanted to. I don't think your question is uninteresting, but it is not suited to the question-answer format of this site - as written, it is more of a discussion question. – Bryan Krause Mar 08 '17 at 17:25
  • What about now? I managed to shape it into a question pertaining only to whether there is any relationship between the definition of complexity and organization in biology. The point is is it possible to define complexity in biology without including organization in the definition of it and the vice versa? Are they interrelated in codefinitional circle we can't escape and if they are-why? How is this not an interesting topic for discussion in a biology Q&A? Don't you see implications if the 2 terms are mutually dependant on each other for their definitions? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 17:33
  • The whole point is that questions for discussion are not questions for this site - questions should have a correct answer (within the bounds of existing knowledge, of course), not based on opinion, or they don't belong. I don't want to hijack your question, but consider something like the following, which I still feel is not ideal but it is not a question I would vote to close: "Are there any academic works that distinguish between complexity and organization in biology such that they need not be correlated with one another?" – Bryan Krause Mar 08 '17 at 17:58
  • Then do you suggest I make 2 new questions-1 is there relationship between the definition of complexity in biology in terms of the organization of the organisms and 2-is there relationship between the definition of organization in biology in terms of complexity? Would that be more "fit" for you? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 18:02
  • I still am amazed how quickly you put this question on hold while other questions pertaining to the same field and also having many unclear questions mentioned in them like this one-http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/13853/why-and-how-does-complexity-usually-tend-to-increase-through-time/57005#57005 are still standing active even after years have passed? What is so "unclear" here that is "clear" there to put my on hold so quickly? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 22:00
  • @YordanYordanov the other question was asked during our beta. The community was a lot less clear on what constitutes "answerable". Now it's resurfaced I'll initiate a close vote. People may be hesitant to follow since it has 7 upvotes (people like the question) and an accepted answer that seems at least superficially satisfying. If in the future you have an issue with a question, it'll be best to raise it on that question rather than a different question. This site is vast. – James Mar 09 '17 at 04:18
  • @James , the issue I have is where is the place for Q&A about complexity in biology on that site. Should I use questions like the one I show you (which I personally-you're free to disagree-think is quite vague and broad)q should I make my own questions and use the tag complexity or may be something else, What do you think will be the best question for regarding the issue of complexity here on this site? What should be asked-what it is, how to measure it, problems regarding different definitions and/or measurements of complexity,its significance for evolution, ect.How to ask questions about it? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 09 '17 at 13:33
  • I'm ready to delete this entire question if you can provide me with better ways to ask about the problems associated with the discussion of complexity in biology. What do you consider would be appropriate question about complexity in biology on this site? If you manage to provide better question I'm ready to delete this one in its favour. – Yordan Yordanov Mar 09 '17 at 13:35
  • @YordanYordanov I agree the other question is vague and have opened a close vote on it. I see questions on complexity being more along the lines of "How can I quantify the complexity of system/thing X in a biologically relevant way?" This question is on hold and will be closed sooner or later unless it is successfully reopened. – James Mar 10 '17 at 05:17
  • I want to delete my question in favor of this one-http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/57178/what-is-the-meaning-of-complexity-in-biology but the systems just will not allow me. I feel this one is better and if somebody wants to put it on hold it because it is a duplicate of this one I should delete this one, not my second question. What should I do? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 10 '17 at 14:38

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Here's food for thought. Entropy is always considered to flow naturally in a direction of order, to disorder. That is, the higher entropy a system has, the greater degree of disorder it has, and the less amount of work it can perform.

Now, look at a cell. It is a biological system of organic molecules that are able to organise themselves in a way that outweighs the forces of entropy. To "fight" the natural tendency of the universe that moves toward a state of disorder requires a highly complex system. And, in the process of going against entropically favorable mechanisms, a cell is also able to produce its own energy (stored as potential energy, or ATP if you will).

I guess you could say, a more complex system is able to organise itself in a greater number of ways for the purpose (and I use this word very loosely, as nothing really has a purpose) of yielding entropic energy to do work.

Bob
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  • I think you are on very right track here. The question, however remains can we define organization as the state which forces the system to go against the entropy gradient and if we can, then what is really complexity then? Does the increase in organization drives the increase in complexity or is it the vice versa? Or may be some even more intricate and "complex" relationship? – Yordan Yordanov Mar 08 '17 at 17:03
  • Another thing to consider is that complexity can sometimes be more apparent than real, because an underlying simple mechanism that is not understood by the observer can give rise to complex results. For instance, consider how the growth of plants &c can be modeled by L-systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system ), or how the widely different forms of mollusc shells conform to a few mathematical rules. Or indeed, how a couple of simple principles produces evolution. – jamesqf Mar 08 '17 at 19:13
  • "Does the increase in organization drives the increase in complexity or is it the vice versa?" seems a lot like the question, "did the chicken or the egg come first?". I do understand why people voted to put this question on hold - because there isn't really any way to answer it. I honestly do not know because it is too abstract. I think I have somewhat of an idea about how it works, but I have no idea how it came to be. – Bob Mar 08 '17 at 22:56