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How can one define Continuous White Noise in a coherent way?
Is there a way to derive it Mathematically?

Specifically, is there a way to define it which will works as the model in Signal Processing yet will obey all Mathematical properties of a Random Process?

robert bristow-johnson
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Royi
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    "is there a difference in the way it is defined in Signal Processing?" Different from what? Perhaps I'm being parochial, but isn't the concept of white noise only defined in signal processing? – TimWescott Aug 18 '23 at 15:54
  • Yeah, Royi, I think this question has reached a deadlock. You have one definition in your answer, Tim and others including me have a different one, you're not going to accept these - making the question actually one of "what is the definition, in Royi's opinion", and we usually don't allow opinion-based questions. So, how do you propose we get out of this strange situation? – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 09:14
  • @MarcusMüller, I won't be accepting mine. I was asking for a coherent definition. I just used my answer to show the issue (Difference). – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 09:17
  • @MarcusMüller, By the way, I am pretty sure that all definitions must align. The way I know to align the all is by defining White Noise as a limit of a process noise with certain properties. The only point I made, started in a discussion with Robert, is that the common definition of White Noise in Signal Processing is not complete Mathematically. If you can show me otherwise, you'll get the marked answer. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 09:27
  • @Royi well the problem is that Tim's definition simply through $t_1\ne t_2 \implies E(X_{t_1}\cdot X_{t_2})=0$; is coherent. It doesn't try to do a Fourier transform, and hence doesn't get into trouble when the ACF doesn't exist, or is not transformable, or if the energy diverges. You're arguing in the comments below it that this well-formedness would matter for a definition – but that's not the "coherent" thing to do. You're "inventing" (pointed word, do not take negatively) additional constraints,and then derive properties from that,like the surprising distribution claim! – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 09:31
  • @Royi which, honestly, is fine, but you don't get multiple aligning definitions that way. Tim's def implies zero correlation for different times – that's pretty much it. If another definition yields that white noise must follow a specific amplitude distribution type, then these definitions will not align. – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 09:34
  • @MarcusMüller, I totally agree. I wrote in the comment that this is an acceptable definition. It is not a coincident the writer of the book, as written in comments, escapes discussion over it. As it requires delicate Math, The question is, if you use this definition, how do you proceed to analysis of Linear System? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 09:46
  • The analysis of linear systems in the time domain only relies on the time-domain correlation, so that works without modification; in continous-time that boils down to treating a distribution correctly as test functional, with which convolution is identity (or at most a scaling). In discrete time, things "always work by default", in the sense that you don't need to think about how to solve any integrals, you can just pull the $E(X[t_1]\cdot X^*[t_2])$ into the convolution sum and use the linearity of the expectation operator. Whether or not you can then do things like throwing Fourier … – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 10:16
  • …Transforms at the convolution: Depends on your actual noise! But that's no different than for systems: not every linear system's impulse response can be Fourier transformed :) That transform might exist, it might not. "Whiteness" of noise doesn't say whether the convolution of noise with signal has a PSD or not. (That is even true for your nice strict-sense stationary white gaussian noise: not all systems can be Fourier or Laplace transformed, for some only the expected output with select random excitation signals exists.) – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 10:20
  • @MarcusMüller, I don't see how you pull this. Linear system requires knowledge of the 2nd moment. The definition gives you only the case of cross correlation of different times, not the same time. When you define what happens at the same time things get strange. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:24
  • @MarcusMüller, The issue is, I think, if you ask this to hold even for $ \left| {t}{i} - {t}{j} \right| = \epsilon \to 0 $ then you get issues. It means it requires $ \epsilon > 0 $. It can be arbitrary small, but not zero. Then everything works. I will try to sketch it Mathematically. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:29
  • @MarcusMüller, If you don't accept small correlation you can work with the arbitrary model but under the knowledge the PSD and the Auto Correlation are not really a transform of one each other as defined by the Wiener Khinchin Theorem. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:32
  • Tim's answer addresses all the points you just added in your edit. It's mathematically consistent, it's common in the field (unlike your answer, his cites a specific definition from a popular textbook), and it's useful. You claim it's not consistent, but haven't backed that up with any more than a strong conviction :) Please do! – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 11:55
  • @MarcusMüller, It is not consistent. It is not even a random process. You can't have a stationary random process which has those properties. If you can derive such, I'd be happy to see it. Have you read the reference I pointed? You can't have no correlation for any pair and still be consistent with Wiener Khinchin Theorem. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:58

4 Answers4

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In the context of Signal Processing White Noise is usually defined using a single intuitive property: A random process with constant magnitude, for any frequency, of its power spectrum:

If $ w \left( t \right) $ is a white noise then its power spectrum is given by $ {S}_{w} \left( f \right) = {\sigma}^{2} $. In communication it is common to use $ {S}_{w} \left( f \right) = \frac{ {N}_{0} }{2} $.

Using Wiener Khinchin Theorem one would conclude that the Auto Correlation of the process, which is assumed to be a Stationary Process in the wide sense is given by $ {R}_{ww} \left( \tau \right) = {\sigma}^{2} \delta \left( t \right) $.

In the context of Signal Processing we only need the model of Continuous White Noise in order to analyze the output of Linear System with finite frequency support. For this context, the above model is enough.

Yet, if one wants to be rigorous, mathematically, the above model is not enough.
For instance, if one wants the Wiener Khinchin Theorem to hold one must have, arbitrarily small, correlation in the auto correlation function.
So the move from the power density to the auto correlation, as done above, is not justified Mathematically (See for instance "Roy M. Howard - On Defining White Noise").
So the beast, called White Noise, is not plausible both Physically (Which is OK, we are dealing with Math), yet it is not coherent Mathematically, it requires more delicate work. Yet, again, in the context of Signal Processing, this is enough as only deal with it in the context of going through a Linear System with limited bandwidth support.

A more rigorous derivation can be done by defining the (Gaussian) White Noise as the derivative of Wiener Process.
Wiener Process has some properties which makes it interesting:

  1. The difference of 2 samples is Gaussian.
  2. The samples / realization path is continuous (In the almost surely sense).

Then we can define Gaussian White noise as the derivative of the Wiener Process. This will yield a more coherent definition (For instance, it indeed defines a distribution).

Remark I'd be happy if those who -1 will specify why.
I will try to explain the answer.

The answer has the following logic:

  • We want a random process. Specifically a stationary random process (Even if only in the wide sense, there are subtleties to that, but let's skip this).
  • It should obey Wiener Khinchin Theorem we need to be able to analyze it using spectral methods.

A reasonable way to do so is define a random process as following.

  • Let $ v \left( t \right) $ be a stationary random process.
  • For any pair $ {t}_{i} \neq {t}_{j} $ we would like to have $ \mathbb{E} \left[ v \left( {t}_{i} \right) v \left( {t}_{j} \right) \right] = 0 $.

If we can have that, great, we have a White Noise.
It turns out we can't! Why? Read the reference.
It has to do with convergence of a limit and order of integration and the limit operator.

So, what can have?
We can define $ \epsilon > 0 $ arbitrary small for which the auto correlation function is not zero.
It will give us a support, arbitrary large, in the PSD with constant value.
This model of White Noise will obey the needs of Signal Processing, namely for any Linear System with finite bandwidth the properties will be as we know them yet indeed our process will obey the properties of a valid random process, stationarity included.

Royi
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    Yet, I've only ever seen the Wiener process defined as the integral of white noise. – TimWescott Aug 18 '23 at 19:21
  • @TimWescott, Wiener Process is the distribution of Brownian Motion. A Physical phenomenon which needs no definition of White Noise in order to be defined. Look on the Wikipedia term of Wiener Process, it has a definition. I don't see White Noise there. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 05:17
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    I would, instead, define the Wiener Process (what we Neanderthal electrical engineers call "Brown noise" or "Red noise") as the integral of white noise. And this brown noise has infinite variance, too, (or, at least, grows without bound) if you wait long enough. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 05:27
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    @Royi, this is going to boil down to the same difference in understanding that engineers (and physicists) have with $\delta(t)$ (and treat it as a "function") in comparison to the rigorous mathematical treatment (that makes it into a "distribution" and not a function). We engineers are comfortable with treating the dirac impulse as a special function. If you, somehow, come to a conclusion that "band-unlimited white noise has a variance", then whatever you're talking about is different than what we are talking about. White noise has finite variance only when there is a bandwidth. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 05:33
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    @robertbristow-johnson, Physicists actually don't use the same definition. Again, there are Math laws. If you want the transform from the Auto Correlation to the Power Spectrum, to be Mathematically reasonable there are rules of integration to work by. It has nothing to do with Physicists or Engineers. It has to do with Math. The reason Signal Processing gets away from this is that we don't have a real interest in the Math beast of White Noise, we only care about what happens when it goes through a Linear System with limited bandwidth. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 05:37
  • @robertbristow-johnson, Also, Why -1? Is there anything not accurate in the answer? I'd be happy to fix it. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 05:38
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    @robertbristow-johnson, Also, If you're so sure about your model, I asked you, can you build me a White Noise which has an Exponential distribution? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 05:43
  • Royi, do you know what a strawman is? – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 05:45
  • @robertbristow-johnson, Let's stop. You're not into a dialogue. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 05:58
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    Royi, dangerous claim that just because the integral of a WGN process is a Brownian process, that every white process must be the derivative of a Brownian process. As my house mathematician would say, "your theorem leaves room for exceptions", which I've been assured is a good way to start an exchange of loud words in a mathematician's conference. I'm still looking forward to one day witnessing such a thing happening, though. – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 09:36
  • @MarcusMüller, I made no such claim. Brownian Motion can be defined on its own with no relation to white noise. On the contrary, a coherent way to define White Noise is by using Wiener Process. Also the connection is only with Gaussian White Noise. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:33
  • Could the ones who -1 leave some comment please? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:34
  • @MarcusMüller, On top of that, I think you can't have non Gaussian continuous white noise. But this is for a different discussion. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:36
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    @Royi no, it's not a coherent way, sorry! That's an extremely limiting definition that excludes a lot of very white processes. That's what I meant above: you make an arbitrary restriction ("white noise is defined as derivative of a Wiener process"), then come to a conclusion ("hence, white processes are Gaussian"). I can also say "white noise is the sound a cat makes when being very content about being petted" and then come to conclusions "if there's white noise, a cat is being petted somewhere close". But that would obviously a fallacy! (I'm the second -1 now, because I just realized how… – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 11:46
  • @MarcusMüller, Coherent in the Mathematical way. Can you give me one which doesn't have a coherent Mathematical model? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:49
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    …restricting your definition is as I wrote this comment. The question asks for "coherent definitions" as "used in signal processing"; and this answer's neither. Please don't take this personally!) – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 11:50
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    @Royi please don't whataboutism me: this answer is plain not coherent nor a common definition. The presence of a coherent definition in another answer has no bearing on that :) – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 11:50
  • @MarcusMüller, Why not? I gave you one on the reference. It works in the Signal Processing context and in the Mathematical context. Have you read the reference I point to? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:51
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    as said, that's a whataboutism. You are trying to make it now my job to provide something better, where it would be this answer's job to be sensible. It's not my job. – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 11:52
  • @MarcusMüller, I don't get it. My answer gives a reference which defines White Noise well. In a manner which both obeys all properties needed for the Signal Processing context and it is well defined Mathematically. It is the answer to the question. If there are others, I will mark them. But they have to be a valid Random Process which obeys the properties of Random Processes. Specifically Stationary. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 11:56
  • (found a mistake in my criticism of the math of your paper, so will have to postpone) – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 13:03
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    generally, I'm a bit confused about how you're reading from the paper that white noise is going to be Gaussian: the whole point of III is that a very non-Gaussian distributed random process is white. Is the problem you have with that that it only applies for arbitrary small, but non-zero correlation lags? – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 13:14
  • @MarcusMüller, You're mixing my words. Th paper is about what's needed to have a valid stationary white noise. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 13:17
  • @MarcusMüller, The comment about continuous noise being Gaussian is "I think.". I will look into that. Now that you have read the paper, you see one can define white noise coherently? You may also look on other papers of the same writer on the subject. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 13:18
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    then I don't understand your words, which stand – verbatim – as "A more rigorous derivation can be done by defining the (Gaussian) White Noise as the derivative of Wiener Process.". Because that definition is in stark conflict with the paper. It's not "more rigorous", it's contradicting. – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 13:18
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    @Royi yep, the author uses the definition $R(\tau) = k \delta(\tau), G(f) = \eta/2$; fine by me, but your initial answer's sentence is explicitly restricting the condition to $G(f)$; now I'm fully confused by the statement of your answer. – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 13:23
  • @MarcusMüller, The paper show the pair of delta defined with Auto Correlation and Constant Frequency can not obey the Wiener Khinchin Theorem. Did we establish that? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 13:38
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    @Royi I don't feel like nitpicking vocab, really, but here I'm really just a bit confused (that's not your fault, the paper is a bit sloppy on that; it states a form of the theorem in (11), but omits the conditions, or much worse, says "It can then be shown that …", without actually requiring the conditions before.). Anyway, the argument from that paper is: Either a theorem is false, or all the things that fulfill its conditions obey it. So, if the statement of a true theorem does not apply to something, then its prerequisites must not be met. But that does not imply such a process doesn't… – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 14:48
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    … exist, just that WKT is not useful to work with it. That's a fine observation, but that doesn't mean at all that the process (e.g. the Dichotomous White Noise from section III) is not white, or that the definition of white used here is not useful, or anything. Only that WKT has its prerequisites not fulfilled. – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 14:51
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Aaagh, it's 2 in the morning. I'll answer Royi's question sincerely tomorrow.

But it's all gonna boil down to how engineers and physical scientists think about the dirac delta function, $\delta(t)$, versus how the mathematicians think about the same. And this SE is not the same as the math SE. So there is a qualitative difference in the nature of rigor between the two communities.

Strictly speaking, the math guys are right. But it's totally useless in the context of signal processing or even in physical modeling, as per the wonderful quote from Richard Hamming:

Does anyone believe that the difference between the Lebesgue and Riemann integrals can have physical significance, and that whether say, an airplane would or would not fly could depend on this difference? If such were claimed, I should not care to fly in that plane.

Peter K.
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robert bristow-johnson
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  • Best ideas come late at night :-). I will be reading toughly. Thanks. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 06:38
  • I'm not gonna have anything other than meat and potatoes. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 06:57
  • Let $f(x)$ and $g(x)$ be bounded measurable functions on a set of finite measure, $E$. And let $f(x) = g(x)$ "almost everywhere" on the set $x \in E$. Then $$ \int_E f(x) \ \mathrm{d}x = \int_E g(x) \ \mathrm{d}x $$ Now, the problem is that EEs and math people are not going to see this the same. Let $f(x)=\delta(x)$ and $g(x)=0$. And $E={x: -\epsilon < x < \epsilon }$ where $\epsilon>0$. One of them integrals is $1$ and the other is $0$. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 07:06
  • You started with "bounded" and then used unbounded function. The delta function is a limit of series of functions. The problem is when you change the orders of the limit and integration without working the delicate Math needed. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 07:28
  • Also, what do you mean by "Now, the problem is that EEs and math people are not going to see this the same". There is one Math to work with. Whether you're EE or Mathematician. The issue is, EE don't need the coherency as they use the Noise only in a single use case where this discrepancy doesn't make a difference. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 07:30
  • //"There is one Math to work with."// - - - If that leads you to the conclusion that white noise has a variance, then you're mistaken. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 15:39
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Well, there's the way that Athanasios Papoulis defines it in Probability, Random Variables, and Stochastic Processes, McGraw-Hill, 1984:

We shall say that a process $\mathbf v(t)$ is white noise if its values $\mathbf v(t_i)$ and $\mathbf v(t_j)$ are uncorrelated for every $t_i$ and $t_j \ne t_i$.

Historically, I'm not sure if this was derived from a spectral point of view (i.e., starting out with a power spectrum and working backwards), or if the concept of "noise that is always different no matter how fine the time interval" came first, and broadband noise came later.

Given that signal processing evolved from pioneer radio technology, and that came from sticking bits of wire and metal plates together first, then identifying inductors, capacitors, and antennas later, I suspect that white noise was first observed and described in terms of spectra, and only later described in the time domain.

If you start with a signal that has a power spectral density $S(\omega) = 1$, then that pretty much defines that it's autocorrelation will be $R(\tau) = \delta(\tau)$. That definition for $R(\tau)$ leads directly* to Papoulis's time-domain definition.


* After, if you're picky about such things, you work through all the infinities involved with trying to apply $\delta(\tau)$ in multiple places.

TimWescott
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  • The trick is that the property of no correlation is not enough as we need to define a distribution. It is a bit tricky as if you go one path starting with only no correlation you get some "paradoxes". – Royi Aug 18 '23 at 16:46
  • @Royi why would you need to define a distribution? You don't! You can have nice gaussian white noise, but just as much uniform distributed. – Marcus Müller Aug 18 '23 at 18:13
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    @MarcusMüller, Actually you can't :-). This is exactly the point of the question. The model we use in Signal Processing is not coherent Mathematically. There are ways to define it coherently, they require other tools. You may look at my answer and the reference I linked to which shows why you can't have both define the Auto Correlation with Delta and the Power Spectrum as constant and say they are a pair according to Wiener Khinchin Theorem. White Noise is a limit of process. There are some delicate way to work with it which is not a concern for Signal Processing but it is for other fields. – Royi Aug 18 '23 at 18:30
  • Tim, do you remember all the fuss that happened at comp.dsp when I was saying that whatever is the dimension of the argument of the dirac delta "function", the "value" of the function has the reciprocal dimension? And then all of the fuss that came from the math guys (the "distribution" description) and some EEs that just didn't get it at all? This is going to be like that, in fact, I think the root to the difference of understand of white noise comes directly from the difference in understanding that engineers and physical scientists have with mathematicians about $\delta(t)$. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 05:40
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    The other funny thing is, Tim, is that I got the Papoulis book too. And although he mentions white noise a couple of times (pp 217 and 241), he really stays the hell away from the topic otherwise. That's disappointing. The college references that I am using is A.B. Carlson, Wozencraft and Jacobs, and Van Trees. Papoulis, normally very rigorous, doesn't wanna fuck with it. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 19 '23 at 05:48
  • I totally agree with the quoted definition: $ \text{ if } \forall {t}{i} \neq {t}{j} ; \mathbb{E} \left[ v \left( {t}{i} \right) v \left( {t}{j} \right) \right] = 0 \implies v \left( t \right) \text{ is a white noise } $. Now, can you derive this definition into the delta function based on this definition? – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 09:23
  • @Royi why would one want to do that? What does deriving definition of the dirac function have to do with this? the statement stands as is; nobody expects it to be identical to the delta distribution – Marcus Müller Aug 19 '23 at 11:57
  • @MarcusMüller, Have you read the reference? I think if you will, all your questions will be answered. Specifically that this is not a proper way to define a Random Process. – Royi Aug 19 '23 at 12:00
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    "...difference in understanding that engineers and physical scientists have with mathematicians about $\delta(t)$..." Or if not just that, then the fact that an engineer or physicist takes $\delta(t)$ to be a nice shorthand way of describing something physically impossible and is willing to ignore the 200 pages of exposition one (probably) needs to really nail down what it means, while those 200 pages of exposition are harder for a mathematician to ignore. I suspect that in the case of white noise there's another 200 pages to get from just what we mean by spectrally white to $\delta(t)$. – TimWescott Aug 19 '23 at 14:53
  • @TimWescott, It is so funny that we create camps here. EE + Physicist vs. Mathematicians. First, I'm pretty sure Physics people will use the Delta as a distribution, which is what it is. Moreover, when I did my EE I was also taught calculus of Distribution prior to the use of the Delta. There is only a single Math, the correct one. Indeed, you can either use White Noise model similar to what I linked or you go the Tempered Distribution path. You want simplicity, stick with arbitrary long support with constant value and arbitrary small correlation time. – Royi Aug 20 '23 at 19:55
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So, this answer is going to need installments. There needs to be a few chapters to lead up to it. Before getting to the definition of white noise, we gotta begin with stochastic processes (a fancy name for "random processes"), specifically processes that are strictly stationary, more specifically Markov processes.

I am going to make lotsa assumptions at the outset to make my life easier:

  1. This is about finite power signals and not about finite energy signals: $$ 0 \ < \ \lim_{T \to \infty} \frac{1}{T}\int\limits_{-\frac{T}2}^{\frac{T}2} \big|x(t)\big|^2 \ \mathrm{d}t \ < \ \infty $$
  2. So then the appropriate definition of cross-correlation is: $$ R_{xy}(\tau) \triangleq \lim_{T \to \infty} \frac{1}{T}\int\limits_{-\frac{T}2}^{\frac{T}2} x(t+\tau)y^*(t) \ \mathrm{d}t $$
  3. Autocorrelation of $x(t)$ is simply $R_{xx}(\tau)$ and $R_{xx}(0)$ is the mean power of $x(t)$.
  4. $x(t)$ is ergodic in every sense which means that any expressible average or mean w.r.t. time (like those expressed above) can be expressed as a probabilistic average or mean. This is the Expected value (sometimes called "Expectation operator"): $$ \operatorname{E}\Big\{ g(x) \Big\} \triangleq \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} g(\alpha) p_x(\alpha) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha $$ where $p_x(\alpha)$ is the probability density function (p.d.f.) of the random variable $x$ and $g(\cdot)$ is some well-defined function. A random process $x(t)$ sampled at any given time $t$ is a random variable.

So (with another assumption that $x(t)$ and $t$ are both real) the implication that ergodicity has on the autocorrelation is:

$$\begin{align} R_{xx}(\tau) &= \lim_{T \to \infty} \frac{1}{T}\int\limits_{-\frac{T}2}^{\frac{T}2} x(t+\tau)x(t) \ \mathrm{d}t \qquad \qquad & \text{(average w.r.t. time)}\\ \\ &= \operatorname{E}\Big\{ x(t+\tau)x(t) \Big\} \qquad \qquad & \text{(probabilistic average)} \\ \\ &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty}\int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \alpha\beta \ p_{x(t+\tau)x(t)}(\alpha,\beta) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha \, \mathrm{d}\beta\\ \end{align}$$

where $p_{x(t+\tau)x(t)}(\alpha,\beta)$ is the joint p.d.f. for the two random variables $x(t+\tau)$ and $x(t)$.

$ R_{xx}(0) = \operatorname{E}\Big\{ \big|x(t)\big|^2 \Big\}$ is the mean-square of $x(t)$ and, if the mean $\operatorname{E}\Big\{ x(t) \Big\}=0$, the mean-square and variance are equal.

Now let's assume, additionally, that this random process is Gaussian and zero mean:

$$ p_{x(t)}(\alpha) = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2 \pi} \sigma_x} e^{-\frac12 \left(\frac{\alpha}{\sigma_x}\right)^2} $$

Being zero-mean, then the mean-square, $\operatorname{E}\Big\{ \big|x(t)\big|^2 \Big\}$, and variance, $\sigma_x^2$, are the same and larger than zero.

Additionally, we'll assume a Markov process. So the value of the previous states may affect the current state. The value of the state at $x(t)$ may have an effect on the probability of the state at a later time, $x(t+\tau)$.

As a judiciously-arranged example, consider this class of Markov process. Given the known earlier value $x(t)$, the dependent p.d.f. for the later random value $x(t+\tau)$ is:

$$\begin{align} p_{x(t+\tau)}\big(\alpha|x(t)\big) &= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2 \pi \left(\sigma_x^2 - R_{xx}(\tau)\right)}} e^{-\frac12 \frac{\left(\alpha-x(t) \sigma_x^{-2} R_{xx}(\tau)\right)^2}{\sigma_x^2 - R_{xx}(\tau)}} \\ \\ &= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2 \pi} \sigma(\tau)} e^{-\frac12 \left(\frac{\alpha-\mu(\tau)}{\sigma(\tau)}\right)^2} \\ \end{align}$$

where the dependent (on $x(t)$ and $\tau$) mean and variance are:

$$\begin{align} \mu(\tau) &= x(t) \sigma_x^{-2} R_{xx}(\tau) \\ \\ \sigma(\tau) &= \sqrt{\sigma_x^2 - R_{xx}(\tau)} \\ \end{align}$$

I think that the joint p.d.f. is related to the conditional p.d.f. as:

$$\begin{align} p_{x(t+\tau)x(t)}(\alpha,\beta) &= p_{x(t+\tau)}\big(\alpha|\beta \big) \cdot p_{x(t)}(\beta) \\ \\ &= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2 \pi \left(\sigma_x^2 - R_{xx}(\tau)\right)}} e^{-\frac12 \frac{\left(\alpha-\beta\sigma_x^{-2}R_{xx}(\tau)\right)^2}{\sigma_x^2 - R_{xx}(\tau)}} \ \cdot \ \frac{1}{\sqrt{2 \pi} \sigma_x} e^{-\frac12 \left(\frac{\beta}{\sigma_x}\right)^2} \\ \end{align}$$

Then the autocorrelation of this Markov random process is:

$$\begin{align} R_{xx}(\tau) &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty}\int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \alpha\beta \ p_{x(t+\tau)x(t)}(\alpha,\beta) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha \, \mathrm{d}\beta \\ \\ &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty}\int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \alpha\beta \ p_{x(t+\tau)}\big(\alpha|\beta \big) p_{x(t)}(\beta) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha \, \mathrm{d}\beta \\ \\ &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \beta \, p_{x(t)}(\beta) \ \left[ \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \alpha \ p_{x(t+\tau)}\big(\alpha|\beta \big) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha \right] \ \mathrm{d}\beta \\ \\ &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \beta \, p_{x(t)}(\beta) \ \Big[ \beta \sigma_x^{-2} R_{xx}(\tau) \Big] \ \mathrm{d}\beta \\ \\ &= \left[ \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \beta^2 \, p_{x(t)}(\beta) \ \mathrm{d}\beta \right] \ \sigma_x^{-2} R_{xx}(\tau) \\ \\ &= \Big[ \sigma_x^2 \Big] \, \sigma_x^{-2} R_{xx}(\tau) \\ \\ &= R_{xx}(\tau) \qquad \qquad \checkmark \\ \end{align}$$

This confirms the choice of dependent mean $\mu(\tau) = x(t) \sigma_x^{-2} R_{xx}(\tau)$.

The choice of dependent variance $\sigma^2(\tau)$ is, perhaps, less critical but we want $\sigma(0)=0$, and when $R_{xx}(\tau)=0$ we want $p_{x(t+\tau)}\big(\alpha|x(t)\big)$ to be independent of $x(t)$ which would mean that $\mu(\tau)=0$ and $\sigma^2(\tau)=\sigma_x^2$. Perhaps, the dependent variance should be $\sigma^2(\tau)=\sigma_x^2-|R_{xx}(\tau)|$. I dunno.

If $R_{xx}(\tau) = \sigma_x^2 \, e^{-|4 \nu \tau|}$ and $\nu > 0$, then this might be the Ornstein-Uhlenbeck process (essentially white noise filtered through a first-order RC low-pass filter) and it might approach Brownian motion (essentially white noise passed through an integrator) as $\nu \to 0$. I would say it approaches white noise as $\nu \to \infty$.

If, instead, $R_{xx}(\tau) = \sigma_x^2 \operatorname{sinc}(2 \nu \tau)$, it might be what I call "bandlimited white noise" (and the bandlimits are $\pm \nu$). Again, send $\nu \to \infty$ and you have a definition for white noise.

So the power spectrum is

$$ S_{xx}(f) \triangleq \mathscr{F}\Big\{ R_{xx}(\tau) \Big\} $$

For the Ornstein-Uhlenbeck process, then $$R_{xx}(\tau) = \sigma_x^2 \, e^{-|4 \nu \tau|}$$ and $$ S_{xx}(f) = \frac{\sigma_x^2}{2\nu} \ \frac{1}{1 + \left( \frac{\pi f}{2 \nu} \right)^2} $$

For the bandlimited white noise process, then $$R_{xx}(\tau) = \sigma_x^2 \operatorname{sinc}(2 \nu \tau)$$ and $$ S_{xx}(f) = \frac{\sigma_x^2}{2\nu} \ \Pi \left( \frac{f}{2\nu} \right) $$

Both of these have $S_{xx}(0) = \frac{\sigma_x^2}{2\nu}$ and an effective noise bandwidth (one-sided) of $\nu$ (two-sided bandwidth is $2\nu$). If the variance $\sigma_x^2$ is fixed to a non-zero value, the value of the power spectrum $S_{xx}(f)$ goes to zero (for all $f$) in the limit as $\nu \to \infty$.

If $S_{xx}(0)$ were to remain constant, say $S_{xx}(0) = \frac{\eta}{2}$, then the variance is $\sigma_x^2 = \eta \nu$ and would increase without bound as the effective noise bandwidth, $\nu$, goes to infinity. Note that, in both processes, as the noise bandwidth $\nu$ increases without bound, the autocorrelation becomes a dirac impulse in the limit.

Ornstein-Uhlenbeck to white noise: $$\begin{align} R_{xx}(\tau) &= \lim_{\nu \to \infty} \eta \nu \, e^{-|4 \nu \tau|} \\ \\ &= \frac{\eta}{2} \delta(\tau) \\ \\ \end{align}$$

bandlimited white noise to white noise: $$\begin{align} R_{xx}(\tau) &= \lim_{\nu \to \infty} \eta \nu \, \operatorname{sinc}(2 \nu \tau) \\ \\ &= \frac{\eta}{2} \delta(\tau) \\ \\ \end{align}$$

And the power spectra are both

$$ S_{xx}(f) = \frac{\eta}{2} \qquad \qquad \forall f \in \mathbb{R} $$

if $S_{xx}(0) = \frac{\eta}{2}$ is held to a constant and bandlimit $\nu$ goes to $\infty$. This is what decorrelates $x(t_1)$ from $x(t_2)$ if $t_1 \ne t_2$, but again, it requires infinite variance, $\sigma_x^2 \to \infty$.


Appendix:

Some definitions so that we can make sure we're all on the same page.

Continuous Fourier transform and inverse: $$\begin{align} \mathscr{F}\Big\{ x(t) \Big\} \triangleq X(f) &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} x(t) \, e^{-j 2 \pi f t} \, \mathrm{d}t \\ \\ \mathscr{F}^{-1}\Big\{ X(f) \Big\} \triangleq x(t) &= \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} X(f) \, e^{+j 2 \pi f t} \, \mathrm{d}f \\ \end{align}$$

Rectangular function (sometimes "$\operatorname{rect}(u)$"):

$$\Pi(u) \triangleq \begin{cases} 1 \qquad & \text{ if } |u| < \tfrac12 \\ \tfrac12 \qquad & \text{ if } |u| = \tfrac12 \\ 0 \qquad & \text{ if } |u| > \tfrac12 \\ \end{cases}$$

The inverse Fourier transform of the rectangular function is:

$$ \mathscr{F}^{-1} \left\{ \Pi\left( \tfrac{f}{2\nu} \right) \right\} = 2\nu \, \operatorname{sinc}(2\nu t) $$

The sinc function:

$$\operatorname{sinc}(u) \triangleq \begin{cases} \frac{\sin(\pi u)}{\pi u} \qquad & \text{ if } u \ne 0 \\ 1 \qquad & \text{ if } u = 0 \\ \end{cases}$$


More definitions and notation:

The probability density function (p.d.f.) of a random variable $x$ is denoted as

$$ p_x(\alpha) \triangleq \lim_{\Delta x \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta x} \operatorname{P} \Big\{ \alpha-\tfrac12 \Delta x < x < \alpha+\tfrac12\Delta x \Big\} $$

where $\operatorname{P} \Big\{ \alpha-\tfrac12 \Delta x < x < \alpha+\tfrac12\Delta x \Big\}$ is the probability that $x$ exists between $\alpha-\tfrac12 \Delta x$ and $\alpha+\tfrac12 \Delta x$.

The Expected value of some function of single random variable $x$ is

$$ \operatorname{E}\Big\{ g(x) \Big\} \triangleq \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} g(\alpha) \, p_x(\alpha) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha $$

And for a function of two random variables, $x$ and $y$, the Expected value is

$$ \operatorname{E}\Big\{ g(x,y) \Big\} \triangleq \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} \int\limits_{-\infty}^{\infty} g(\alpha,\beta) \, p_{xy}(\alpha,\beta) \ \mathrm{d}\alpha \, \mathrm{d}\beta $$

where $p_{xy}(\alpha,\beta)$ is the joint p.d.f. for random variables $x$ and $y$ and is defined as

$$ p_{xy}(\alpha, \beta) \triangleq \lim_{\Delta x \to 0} \lim_{\Delta y \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta x} \frac{1}{\Delta y} \ \operatorname{P} \left\{ \begin{matrix} \alpha-\tfrac12 \Delta x < x < \alpha+\tfrac12\Delta x \\ \text{and} \\ \beta-\tfrac12 \Delta y < y < \beta+\tfrac12\Delta y \\ \end{matrix} \right\} $$

robert bristow-johnson
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  • If there's a foul, you get to spell it out. I see no reversal of order. I am yanking multiplicative factors that depend on $\beta$ (which are considered constant w.r.t. $\alpha$) out of the inside integral. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 20 '23 at 19:25
  • No, @Royi, *you* spell it out. We got $\LaTeX$ here. You get to spell it out. I'm not looking at the paper. Not at this point. You have to do your due dilligence. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 20 '23 at 19:36
  • //"I spelled it out."// - - - - That is, what we call in the forensic debate biz, a *falsehood. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."* You get to spell it out, mathematically, or else you're just blowing smoke. I'm done with this now, I'm gonna go canoeing out my backyard here in Vermont. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 20 '23 at 19:43
  • It seems you want to have your own echo chamber. Hence I will delete my comments. Your derivation is perfect, specifically when you're after strict White Noise yet assume it can have a Marcovian property. I wonder how come no one has done this before. – Royi Aug 20 '23 at 20:22
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    No one other than you have said anything about an echo chamber. Are you sure that's the reason you deleted your comments? - - - - As I said originally, even a week ago when I first engaged you about this, White Noise has infinite power. Just as the dirac delta function is unbounded at $\delta(0)$. DC = mean. AC power = variance. DC squared + AC power is total power. Zero mean means that AC power = total power = variance. All growing to infinity without bound as the bandwidth also grows to infinity without bound. And it's not *fully* "white" if the bandwidth is finite. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 20 '23 at 23:41
  • This will be my last comment with you regarding this. What you don't get is that you mix a concept and Math. White Noise is a concept used in EE in specific context where the concept holds. When we do accurate Math you can have White Noise with the infinite properties, yet then it is not a random process, it is something belong to distributions as it is not a function (Random Process is a function). If you want it to be a Random Process which holds the required theorems you must give up on the Delta. The last formulation was shown in my answer. – Royi Aug 21 '23 at 05:05
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    Lessee... //"How can one define Continuous White Noise in a coherent way? "// - - - Does my answer do that? $$ $$ //"Is there a way to derive it Mathematically?"// - - - Does my answer do that? $$ $$ //"Specifically, is there a way to define it which will works as the model in Signal Processing yet will obey all Mathematical properties of a a Random Process?"// - - - Does my answer show such a way? $$ $$ @Royi , I picked up the gauntlet that you threw down (to your surprise and chagrin) and you haven't figgered out how to deal with that. Your self-answer is worthless. It's word salad. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 21 '23 at 13:12