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I have two questions regarding "sprechen über" and "reden über".

Firstly both take the accusative. Now "über" as a stand-alone preposition can take either accusative or dative, so my question is do all verbs + "über" take the accusative?

Secondly, the Langenscheidt dictionary "Deutsch als Fremdsprache" gives

"(über jemanden/etwas) reden: Schlechtes über andere Menschen sagen"

So my question is, can "reden über" not be used to speak well of someone? That is to discuss someone in a positive sense?

Steve
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3 Answers3

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  1. "über" in the sense of "about", "topic of a text, discourse, etc." always selects accusative. The accusative/dative alternation only concerns local prepositions.

  2. "über jemand reden" is neutral, in my opinion. I haven't seen that Langenscheidt dictionary, but I find it hard to believe that saying bad things is a lexicalised meaning. DWDS likewise has "Gutes / Schlechtes über jemanden reden" (https://www.dwds.de/wb/reden#d-1-1-2). So the negative meaning could be evoked by certain contexts, but hardly by "reden" alone. There is the derived word "Gerede" which has negative meaning, so "ins Gerede kommen" means that someone is being talked about in a negative way. But, even though some people might feel an association between "reden" and "Gerede", this is still a different lexical item.

Alazon
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    You inform me that the accusative/dative alternation of über only concerns local prepositions. This is very useful to know! What about other prepositions that can have accusitive//dative when used as local prepositions, do they always take accusitive (or dative) when used together with verbs, adjectives, nouns etc.? – Steve Oct 18 '23 at 20:16
  • That depends on the verb meaning. With "sit" you get a place reading of a preposition, so the case is dative: "auf dem Stuhl sitzen". With movement verbs you refer to a path, hence accusative: "sich auf den Stuhl setzen" (to take a seat) – Alazon Oct 18 '23 at 21:00
  • When a verb+preposition is used idiomatically (i.e. as a prepositional verb) and it's a two-way preposition, more often than not it uses the accusative. But this is more a trend than a rule. "Wir reden über dem Hund" would still be grammatical but it would have to be taken literally; I imagine some people hovering above the dog while talking. – RDBury Oct 19 '23 at 00:57
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There is a systematic kind of ellipsis where a quality is left understood.

Das Essen schmeckt. (=schmeckt gut)

Der Fisch riecht. (=riecht schlecht)

The same thing can happen with (irgendwie) über jemanden reden. Duden has the example:

über jemanden reden (sich hinter seinem Rücken über ihn [abfällig] äußern)

That is, über jemanden reden is understood as schlecht über jemanden reden. But that doesn't imply that the opposite isn't possible if the quality is made explicit.

Das Essen schmeckt scheußlich.

Der Fisch riecht wunderbar.

Man redete nur gut über ihn.

David Vogt
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  • "Ich habe gestern mit jmd. über Fußball geredet." Du vertrittst die Meinung, ohne den Zusatz "gut" ergäbe sich, wir hätten schlecht über Fußball geredet? Und wenn wir neutral drüber geredet hätten, sollte ich "neutral" dazusagen, damit niemand meint, wir hätten uns abfällig geäußert? Oder wenn wir mehreres getan hätten, gut, schlecht und neutral geredet? Und bei Personen ist es anders als bei Ereignissen? – user unknown Oct 20 '23 at 16:08
  • @userunknown Wenn deine muttersprachliche Intuition im Stich läßt, mußt du eben dem Duden vertrauen. – David Vogt Oct 20 '23 at 16:17
  • a) Niemand muss dem Duden vertrauen - ich kann es nicht empfehlen. b) Wen seine muttersprachliche Intuition im Stich lässt, darüber sind wir offenbar geteilter Meinung. Womöglich redest Du ja so viel schlecht über andere Menschen, dass Dir nichts anderes geläufig ist. – user unknown Oct 20 '23 at 16:21
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Part 1 (dative vs accusative)

The preposition »über« is a Wechselpräposition (alternating preposition; change preposition). Such prepositions can have a dative object or also an accusative object:

  • accusative

    Die Drohne fliegt über den Fluss.
    The drone flies across the river.

    You use accusative to describe a movement from one place to another. Before the action began, the drone was on one side of the river, then it flew across it and ends on the other side of the river. It is therefore in a different place at the end than at the beginning.

  • dative

    Die Drohne fliegt über dem Fluss.
    The drone flies above the river.

    The drone is either hovering in the air, somewhere above the river, or it follows the course of the river. While it's flying, it doesn't leave the realm of the river. You use dative to describe an action that happens stationary (even if it's a movement, as long as this movement happens entirely inside a given region). The drone is above the river all the time: at the beginning and at the end and at all times in between.

This difference between a stationary action and a movement from A to B is relatively easy to understand when it's about local aspects (places and directions). But this distinction between stationary actions and movements also works for temporal prepositions:

Examples:
(I need to use a preposition other than über here, and I'll explain why later.)

  • temporal movement (hinter + accusative)

    Wir müssen den Termin hinter die Feiertage verschieben.
    We have to shift the deadline behind the holidays.

  • temporal stationary (hinter + dative)

    Der Termin liegt hinter den Feiertagen.
    The deadline is after the holidays.

The preposition »über« can be used also as a temporal preposition, but only in combination with periods of time, which counts as a temporal movement. So, when you use »über« in a temporal manner, you can't combine it with dative. Only accusative is possible:

Tante Helga bleibt über die Feiertage bei uns.
Aunt Helga is staying with us over the holidays.

But when a preposition is not used local or temporal, it makes no sense to talk about circumstances or reasons being stationary or moving. And most of the Wechselpräpositionen even can't be used other than local or temporal, but über can.

Most grammar books usually list only four types of usage for prepositions: Local and temporal which we both already know, but also modal (describing how something happens: »Er isst mit großem Appetit.«) and causal (describing why something happens: »Sie kam wegen der Nachspeise.«) But this list ist not complete. The usage of »über« in »Markus redet über ihn« belongs to none of these four types. Some authors introduce a relational use of prepositions that would fit your sentence well, but more commonly, uses that do not fit the four common types are grouped into a fifth type called a "neutral preposition."

So, the question of classifying the kind of usage in »über jemanden reden« is tricky, but the answer is definitely neither "local" nor "temporal" and for that reason you don't need to care about the fact, that »über« is a Wechselpräposition. If it's neither local nor temporal, always use accusative case.


Part 2 (can »über jemanden reden« also mean »to speak well about someone«?)

Under certain circumstances, it can be used that way, but usually not.

Generally spoken »über jemanden reden« means that there are rumors about someone. Rumors can have a positive content (»Some people say, she could be the winner of the next Nobel price«) but rumors usually have less nice contents (»I saw her together with Georg conspicuously often. I think she is cheating on her husband.«) And this is the reason, why »über jemanden reden« usually has a negative connotation.

Hubert Schölnast
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  • Ich kann dem zweiten Absatz nicht beipflichten. Auch wenn eine statistische Auswertung gesprochener Sprache zum Ergebnis käme, dass das Verhältnis 80:10:10 ist, schlecht, neutral oder gut über jmd. zu sprechen, ergibt sich daraus keine Folge. "Worüber hast Du mit Deinem Mann geredet?" - "Über Mutter." Daraus kann man nicht folgern, dass mit 80%iger Wahrscheinlichkeit schlecht über Mutter gesprochen wurde. Gerüchte müssen auch nicht im Spiel sein. Es können Gerüchte im Spiel sein, aber das muss sich aus dem Kontext ergeben, aus dem "Reden über" ergibt es sich nicht. – user unknown Oct 20 '23 at 16:03
  • Thanks @Hubert Schölnast for the fantastic and detailed answer, as always! First time I read such a clear and comprehensive explanation on this theme! As I am kind of a "Nervensäge", two minor points still bug me: (1) in your first example "Die Drohne fliegt über den Fluss", how would that work with "bleiben"? "Die Drohne bleibt über den Fluss", oder? That would not go well with the explanation on the change of place, or am I mistaken? (2) Should I mention cases like "arbeiten an"? "Er arbeitet an einem tollen Projekt": Shall I assume the dativ is completely arbitrary here? – Sylvain Gadenne Nov 28 '23 at 13:19
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    @SylvainGadenne: (1) »Die Drohne bleibt über den Fluss« (The drone stays above the river) is just wrong. The drone does not move, so by definition it is a stationary action and therefore the place of the action (the river) must be in the dative case. Only this is correct: »Die Drohne bleibt über dem Fluss.« (2) I think the best is just learn, that "arbeiten an" needs dative, while "denken an" or "glauben an" needs accusative. This is based on the fact that verbs of mental involvement (denken, glauben, erinnern, ...) express a movement of the subject in a figurative ... – Hubert Schölnast Nov 30 '23 at 08:14
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    ... sense: The subject was previously mentally distant from the object and approaches the object on a mental level through thinking, believing, remembering, etc. The subject moves mentally, so these verbs require the accusative in combination with the preposition "an". But verbs that express a physical activity (arbeiten, basteln, feilen, ...) assume that the subject and object are in the same place. So there is no movement in this case. Physical involvement is therefore a stationary process and therefore requires the dative case. – Hubert Schölnast Nov 30 '23 at 08:14
  • Thank you so much @HubertSchölnast for your answer to my shenanigans and your great tip on the mental / physical distinction! – Sylvain Gadenne Nov 30 '23 at 14:06