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I have a question which regards a "counterexample" to Fodor's lemma, which states that a regressive function on a stationary set of a regular, uncountable cardinal is constant on a stationary subset of that set.

I'm looking for a regressive function $f:A\longrightarrow A$ which is not constant on any uncountable subset. So even if $A$ is stationary, Fodor's lemma wouldn't work.

Given an arbitrary $A$, is there always such function?

Jules
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  • As stated, the answer is no. Due to the simple reason that if $A$ contains a minimal element, there is no regressive function $f \colon A \to A$ (the minimal element of $A$ can't be mapped to a strictly smaller element). – Stefan Mesken Aug 02 '16 at 09:29
  • Correct, I haven't thought about that. And if we forgot about the minimal element? – Jules Aug 02 '16 at 09:47
  • Andres gave a great answer. But let me add that when you ask a question, which in turn is not the question you are interested, and then you add more information that the actual question is entirely different than what you have in the question, it is *frustrating* to the [potential] answerers. It tells me that I need to milk you and coax the actual question out of you in the first place. Read your question, then read the first two lines of Andres' answer, and tell me where it even remotely hints that this is what you wanted to know. In the comments to my now-deleted answer. – Asaf Karagila Aug 02 '16 at 16:59
  • Well, I thought it was clear, but perhaps I have problems with stating my thoughts understandably. Sorry for the trouble. (Is it because of the missing $A\subseteq\mathbb{R}$ thing? I just realized it's only stated in the question). I mean - don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the efforts - but other than that, I think my question is, and was fine. – Jules Aug 02 '16 at 17:18
  • One piece of very useful advice: The text of your question should contain all relevant information, in that it should be possible to answer it without reading the title. It's more or less like writing the hypothesis of a theorem in the abstract of your paper but not in the statement of the result in the body text. – Pedro Sánchez Terraf Aug 02 '16 at 23:10

1 Answers1

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We are given an uncountable set $A$ of reals, and want to define $f:A\to A$ regressive with the property that $f$ is not constant on any uncountable set. (We need some convention on how to define $f(a)$ if $a$ is the minimum of $A$; this is not really important and I'll leave it up to you what to do here.)

Let $\kappa=|A|$. We proceed by induction on $\kappa$. There are two cases.

1. Suppose ${\rm cof}(\kappa)$ is countable. We can write $A=\bigcup_n A_n$ where the $A_n$ are pairwise disjoint, each $A_n$ is uncountable and of size strictly less than $\kappa$.

By induction, there is a regressive function $f_n:A_n\to A_n$ as desired. Let $f=\bigcup_n f_n$. It may be that $f$ needs to be modified on $\{a\in A\mid\exists n\,(a=\min A_n)\}$ (for instance if this set is different from $\{\min A\}$), but this set is at most countable, so whichever way we fix this, this is not an issue.

2. Suppose now that ${\rm cof}(\kappa)$ is uncountable. Let $$B=\{x\in A\mid |A\cap(-\infty,x]|<\kappa\}.$$ Note that if $x\in B$ then $A\cap(-\infty,x]\subseteq B$. It follows that $B$ itself has size less than $\kappa$. To see this, let $t=\sup B$ in the extended reals (so $t=+\infty$ is possible). Pick an increasing sequence $t_0,t_1,\dots$ of elements of $B$ with limit $t$, and note that $$ \{t\}\cup B=\{t\}\cup\bigcup_n B\cap(-\infty,t_n]\subseteq\{t\}\cup\bigcup_n A\cap(-\infty,t_n], $$ and the last expression shows that $B$ is a countable union of sets of size strictly below $\kappa$. Since ${\rm cof}(\kappa)>\omega$, the claim follows.

First, define a regressive $f:B\to B$. If $B$ is countable, do this any way you want (ensuring that $f$ is regressive, of course); note that since $B$ is regressive, any point has countable preimage. If $B$ is uncountable, use the inductive hypothesis to define $f$.

Finally, let $C=A\setminus B$. Note that $|C|=\kappa$ and indeed $|C\cap (-\infty,x]|=\kappa$ for any $x\in C$. Well-order $C$ in order type $\kappa$, $C=\{x_\alpha\mid \alpha<\kappa\}$. Now define $f:C\to C$ recursively: Suppose that $\alpha<\kappa$ and we have defined $f(x_\xi)$ for all $\xi<\alpha$. Define $f(x_\alpha)=x_\beta$ where $\beta$ is least such that $x_\beta<x_\alpha$ and $x_\beta$ is not in $f(\{x_\xi\mid \xi<\alpha\})$. This is possible because $|C\cap(-\infty,x_\alpha)|=\kappa>|\alpha|$. Note that in fact $f$ is injective on $C$.


Note that the idea of the whole construction is very simple, and it is just what we have in the last paragraph. Perhaps it is simpler to think first of the case when $A$ has size $\aleph_1$. We well-order $A$ and try to define $f$ recursively. The problem is that, if we do not ensure that every $a\in A$ has uncountably many elements of $A$ below, our recursion may run out of elements to pick. So we need to first separate the elements of $A$ with only countable many elements below, the set $B$. When $|A|=\aleph_1$, $B$ is countable.

Once we have this case, we need to generalize from $\aleph_1$ to an arbitrary uncountable size. Now $B$ needs not be countable, and indeed we need to redefine $B$ not as the set of elements of $A$ with only countably many elements below, but as we did above, as the set of elements of $A$ with fewer than $|A|$ many elements below (otherwise, we may still run out of elements in our recursive definition of $f$). But this creates a new problem, namely, it is not clear that $|B|<|A|$. This forces us to divide the argument into two cases, according to the cofinality of $|A|$. The presentation above is just the result of reorganizing this sketch.

  • Wow, thank you for this super informative answer! – Jules Aug 02 '16 at 15:27
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    It might be worth pointing out that this requires the axiom of choice in a substantial way. In Cohen's first model, taking $A$ to be the Dedekind-finite set of generic reals, there is no regressive function like that (it will have to be that such a function is injective on a co-finite set, but since every orbit must be finite, it cannot be injective on any infinite set, contradiction). – Asaf Karagila Aug 02 '16 at 17:02