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I'm reading something on ordinal numbers and I have a probably silly doubt.

Well, let $Z:=\{x_i: \, i \in I\}$ be a subset of a given set $X$. Define in $X$ a sequence $Y_\alpha=\Gamma(Y_{\alpha-1})$ when $\alpha$ is non limit and $Y_\alpha=\bigcup\limits_{\beta <\alpha} \Gamma(Y_\beta)$ (here $\Gamma$ is a given extensive function on the powerset of $X$). In this way, I obtain an increasing sequence $Y_0 \subseteq Y_1 \subseteq \dots \subseteq Y_{\omega} \subseteq ...$ Denote by $Y$ the corresponding union and suppose that $Z \subseteq Y$. By Bergman - An Invitation to General Algebra [prop. 5.5.4 (ii)] "The union of any set of ordinals is an ordinal". Thus, there exists an ordinal $\beta$ such that $Z \subseteq Y_\beta$.

Now, in order to make more concrete my request, I will consider the following situation: suppose that the elements $z,w$ are pairs of subsets of a given ground set $\Omega$ and $X=\mathcal{P}(\Omega) \times \mathcal{P}(\Omega)$. This means that the subsets $Y_\alpha$ are collections of pairs of subsets of $\Omega$. I assume that if $z=(A,B)$ and $w=(C,B)$, then the pair $(A \cup C,B)$ is the result of an operation $\times$ defined between $z$ and $w$.

At this point, suppose that if $z,w \in Y_\gamma$, then the result of $z \times w \in \Gamma(Y_\gamma)=Y_{\gamma+1}$. . My question is: if the members of $Z$ are pairs $(A_z,B)$ with the second component given by the same subset $B$, when I apply the operation on all the elements of $Z$ I get a pair $(\bigcup\limits_{z \in Z} A_z, B)$. Does the resulting pair belong to $\bigcup Y_\alpha$?

TheWanderer
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    What does it mean to multiply "all the elements of $Z$"? If $Z$ is infinite your operation is not binary anymore. (Even in the case of $\Bbb R$ and addition there is no reason to expect infinite sums to produce a real numbers. And that's "the nice" case.) – Asaf Karagila Nov 30 '21 at 14:05
  • In my case, the elements $z$ and $w$ may be seen as subsets and the operation at issue is $\bigcup$ – TheWanderer Nov 30 '21 at 14:20
  • I edited my question in a slightly different way with respect tho the previous comment – TheWanderer Nov 30 '21 at 14:27
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    There are a lot of extraneous details in your question that make it hard to understand. I think it boils down to the following: Let $(Y_\gamma)$ be a continuous increasing sequence of collections of subsets of $\Omega$, indexed by the ordinals, and let $Y = \bigcup_{\gamma}Y_{\gamma}$. Let $(A_z){z\in Z}$ be a family of subsets of $\Omega$. Assume that (1) for all $z\in Z$, there is some $\gamma$ such that $A_z\in Y\gamma$, and (2) if $A_z$ and $A_{z'}$ are in $Y_\gamma$, then $A_z\cup A_{z'}\in Y_{\gamma+1}$. Does it follow that $\bigcup_{z\in Z} A_z\in Y$? – Alex Kruckman Nov 30 '21 at 16:47
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    The answer is no: For example, if every $Y_\gamma$ contains only finite subsets of $\Omega$, then $Y$ contains only finite subsets of $\Omega$. Further, if all the $A_z$ are finite, it's possible to satisfy (1) and (2), but have $\bigcup_{z\in Z} A_z$ infinite. If this answers your question, I can turn it into an official answer. If not, how does your setup differ substantially from my simplified version? – Alex Kruckman Nov 30 '21 at 16:49
  • Yes, it is the answer. I did the example with pairs, but yours works well and sounds better. I'm extremely thankful to you – TheWanderer Nov 30 '21 at 20:12
  • @TheWanderer I've turned my comments into an answer. – Alex Kruckman Nov 30 '21 at 21:51

1 Answers1

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Here is a simplified version of your question, which I think should settle your confusion.

Let $(Y_\gamma)_{\gamma\in\mathrm{Ord}}$ be a continuous increasing sequence of collections of subsets of $\Omega$, indexed by the ordinals, and let $(A_z)_{z\in Z}$ be a family of subsets of $\Omega$.

Assume that (1) for all $z\in Z$, there is some $\gamma$ such that $A_z\in Y_\gamma$, and (2) if $A_z$ and $A_{z'}$ are in $Y_\gamma$, then $A_z\cup A_{z'}\in Y_{\gamma+1}$.

Does it follow that $\bigcup_{z\in Z} A_z\in \bigcup_{\gamma\in \mathrm{Ord}}Y_\gamma$?

The answer is no: For example, take $\Omega = \mathbb{N}$, $Y_\gamma = \mathcal{P}_{\mathrm{fin}}(\mathbb{N}) = \{B\subseteq \mathbb{N}\mid B\text{ is finite}\}$ for all $\gamma$, so $(Y_\gamma)_{\gamma\in \mathrm{Ord}}$ is the constant sequence and $\bigcup_{\gamma\in \mathrm{Ord}} Y_\gamma = \mathcal{P}_{\mathrm{fin}}(\mathbb{N})$. Let $Z = \mathbb{N}$, and define $A_n = \{n\}$ for all $n$. Then (1) and (2) are satisfied, since $A_n\in Y_\gamma$ and $A_n\cup A_m\in Y_\gamma$ for all $n,m\in \mathbb{N}$ and all $\gamma$. But $\bigcup_{n\in \mathbb{N}} A_n = \mathbb{N}\notin \mathcal{P}_{\mathrm{fin}}(\mathbb{N})$.

The point is that the closure condition (2) ensures that any finite union of the $A_z$ is in some $Y_\gamma$, but there's no reason to expect that this extends to infinite unions.

Alex Kruckman
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  • We are using ordinals here because they are “canonical” well orders, but are canonical well orders really needed? couldn’t everything be phrased in terms of “large enough” well ordered sets(given by Hartogs lemma). This makes me wonder if ordinals are really needed or just a convenience? Same for cardinals, why do we need to have a formal ordinal definition, when it seems we could just work in terms of injections and bijections on sets… A bit of of topic but given these things are studied so deeply I think it deserves an answer! – Vivaan Daga Mar 16 '23 at 16:09
  • @Shinrin-Yoku You've asked a very general question in a comment to my answer, which is about a very specific problem. I don't think this comments section is a good place to try to answer your question. Why don't you ask it as its own question? – Alex Kruckman Mar 16 '23 at 17:38
  • Thanks, I have asked it: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4660421/why-do-we-need-canonical-well-orders – Vivaan Daga Mar 16 '23 at 18:38
  • I received a few upvotes, so it seems this question is common among non-experts, it would be great if you could provide an expert answer! – Vivaan Daga Mar 17 '23 at 11:00
  • Given that my question got no answer, I guess ordinals are useless after all :-( this is kind of sad given how deeply they are studied. – Vivaan Daga Mar 18 '23 at 05:28
  • ...and even if "convenience" is the answer? Is there a reason why set-theorists find Von-Neumann ordinals so convenient? – Vivaan Daga Mar 18 '23 at 13:42
  • @Shinrin-Yoku I don't know why you're continuing to post in the comments here. I think your question is a good one, and if I had a good answer for you - and time to write one right now - I would. But I'm going to leave it to a set theorist to write a better answer than I could. – Alex Kruckman Mar 18 '23 at 18:54
  • I don’t think there are any active set theorists left on this site. So any answer, even if not from a set theorist would be helpful.(Of course if you have the time) – Vivaan Daga Mar 19 '23 at 06:05
  • Or maybe you could advise me, if I should move the question to MO? Where I think a few set theorists are remaining. – Vivaan Daga Mar 19 '23 at 13:14
  • @Shinrin-Yoku Asaf Karagila, Andres Caicedo, Joel David Hamkins, Andreas Blass, and Noah Schweber (to name a few of the top posters in the set-theory tag) all remain active here as far as I know. I think your question could be a good fit for MO, especially if you emphasize the aspect of working without Replacement. – Alex Kruckman Mar 19 '23 at 22:38