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The purpose of the $\sf ZFC$ Axiom of Infinity seems to me to have no other purpose than to provide a set from which the natural numbers can be extracted. Is this correct? If so, do other $\sf ZFC$ axioms, e.g. Pairing, likewise have no other purpose than to enable this extraction process?

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    The purpose of the majority of the axioms of ZFC is to allow us to construct set-theoretic versions of the standard types of objects that we use in mathematics. "Unordered pair" is not directly useful, but in combination with other axioms it lets us construct a set-theoretic version of ordered pair, which is of great importance. – André Nicolas Aug 25 '13 at 20:49
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    ??? The purpose of the axioms taken as a whole is to describe the universe of sets as (we think) we understand it. – Brian M. Scott Aug 25 '13 at 20:49
  • Your question is far from clear. What "other purposes" for axioms do you have in mind? – Rob Arthan Aug 25 '13 at 21:41
  • @AndréNicolas So, constructing the set of natural numbers and ordered pairs. There must more intuitive, if somewhat less austere ways of handling these constructions. Why don't we just introduce the Peano axioms as you would the axioms of group theory, and use the everyday notation of ordered n-tuples, e.g. (2,3)? – Dan Christensen Aug 26 '13 at 02:17
  • @RobArthan I can't imagine what other purposes Infinity and Pairing Axioms might serve that cannot be served in simpler, more intuitive ways. That's why I am asking the question. – Dan Christensen Aug 26 '13 at 02:23
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    @DanChristensen: We want a framework within which all standard mathematical constructions can be done. Definitely the ZFC construction of ordered pair is artificial, that's not what ordered pairs really are. And again, if we are introducing individual natural numbers, the convoluted construction starting from the empty set and using sickeningly many braces is not a nice one. But it works. More elaborately, the set of reals can be constructed within ZFC, by say formalizing the Dedekind cut approach. When we do analysis, we can largely forget about the set-theoretic background. (Cont.) – André Nicolas Aug 26 '13 at 02:32
  • It comes up in a serious way when we begin to bump into natural conjectures that turn out to be independent of ZFC. Anyway, most of the time, we use properties of the objects constructed using tools from ZFC. The actual definitions, after some preliminary work, play essentially no role in everyday mathematics. – André Nicolas Aug 26 '13 at 02:36
  • @AndréNicolas In group theory, we start by introducing a few axioms that are quite separate from the axioms of set theory. Why not treat number theory the same way? And what is wrong with just starting with the usual notation for ordered pairs within set theory itself? Yes, this would be huge departure from ZFC. – Dan Christensen Aug 26 '13 at 02:46
  • We can treat elementary number theory that way, and we do (first-order Peano axioms). However, pretty soon in number theory we want to use analytic methods, and things such as ideals. We could define ordered pair using a binary function symbol. However, there is an advantageous simplicity in having (in principle) only a single binary predicate symbol $\in$. Then we can define ordered pair set theoretically, introduce the notation $(a,b)$ as an abbreviation, and have our cake and eat it too. – André Nicolas Aug 26 '13 at 02:52
  • @AndréNicolas By quantifying over sets, it is possible state the Peano axioms quite simply (including the principle of mathematical induction). I am not aware of any limitation of this approach. Effectively, it is what we do in everyday mathematics -- e.g. in number theory, algebra and analysis. Supposedly, the real and complex numbers can be constructed from such a beginning. – Dan Christensen Aug 26 '13 at 03:30
  • Going to second-order logic means that there is no nice notion of proof. ZFC is first-order, but allows a lot of second-order-like arguments. – André Nicolas Aug 26 '13 at 03:34
  • We quantify over sets almost everywhere in mathematics. I don't see any problem with it. – Dan Christensen Aug 26 '13 at 03:38
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    As asked, this is very naive. Set theory is a theory of infinite sets. What is remarkable of the axiom of infinite is not that it provides us with a formal surrogate for the natural numbers, but rather that this suffices, when combined with the other axioms, to give us the rich landscape that follows. – Andrés E. Caicedo Aug 26 '13 at 03:53
  • @AndresCaicedo Could you elaborate? Is the Axiom of Infinity in ZFC used for anything other than the construction of the natural numbers? What if anything would we lose by substituting Peano's axioms for AOI? – Dan Christensen Aug 27 '13 at 20:39
  • @DanChristensen "Is the Axiom of Infinity in ZFC used for anything other than the construction of the natural numbers?" Yes!! "Could we just substitute Peano's axioms for AOI without losing any expressive power?" This makes no sense, it is an apples/oranges thing. – Andrés E. Caicedo Aug 27 '13 at 20:41
  • Look: Assuming the other axioms, the axiom of infinity is trivially equivalent to the statement "$\omega$ exists". If this is all you mean, there is no more to say. If you are asking whether this axiom is used to prove any theorems other than "$\omega$ exists", the answer is obviously yes. If your question is whether in these other theorems this use is really necessary, the answer is again yes, and Peter Smith's answer makes this precise. If your question is something else, it needs to be clarified. – Andrés E. Caicedo Aug 27 '13 at 22:14
  • @AndresCaicedo To clarify, by Peano's axioms, I meant to include 2nd order induction (quantifying over sets of natural numbers). With this in mind, what if anything would we lose by substituting Peano's axioms for AOI, assuming the other axioms still held. – Dan Christensen Aug 28 '13 at 03:12
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    Still makes no sense, but anyway, under what ought to be the natural interpretation of your question, you literally do not get anything new. These "axioms" are provable in $\mathsf{ZF}$ without the axiom of infinity. In this theory, you cannot prove that $\omega$ is a set, but you can prove that as a (perhaps proper) class, it satisfies both first and second order $\mathsf{PA}$. Yes, you want the redundancy here, because in this theory you cannot prove the existence of infinite sets, so the second order version may be vacuously true, while the first order version has content regardless. – Andrés E. Caicedo Aug 28 '13 at 05:17
  • @AndresCaicedo I get it now. Thanks. If you want me to officially "accept" this, please post it as an answer. – Dan Christensen Aug 28 '13 at 17:39
  • I've posted the comments as an answer. – Andrés E. Caicedo Aug 28 '13 at 18:10

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Here's a well-known bit of folklore. The theory "ZFC - the axiom of infinity + the negation of the axiom of infinity" is equivalent to Peano Arithmetic in the sense that each theory is interpretable in the other and the interpretations are inverse to each other. (Roughly speaking, anyway. The details involved in spelling this out accurately as a tight result are a bit tricky. See the paper by Kaye and Wong.)

Hence there's one good sense in which ZFC with the negation of the axiom of infinity gets you arithmetic -- so, in exactly what sense is the axiom of infinity "needed to get the natural numbers"?

Glorfindel
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Peter Smith
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  • Well, you could do arithmetic on natural numbers without the axiom. But you wouldn't have the SET of all natural numbers, which is needed to construct the other number systems such as the real numbers. Please correct me if I'm wrong. – Brusko651 Aug 25 '13 at 21:05
  • Sure, there won't be an infinite set! But as I recall the OP was originally asking about whether the axiom was "needed to get the natural numbers", though the question has since been edited (I think!). – Peter Smith Aug 25 '13 at 21:08
  • @PeterSmith I'm not saying the axiom of infinity is necessary for constructing the natural numbers, but that it seems to be used for this and only this purpose. But I stand to be corrected. Are you saying that the natural numbers can be constructed in ZFC without Infinity? That would be interesting. – Dan Christensen Aug 26 '13 at 02:29
  • @Dan: In a model of $\sf ZFC$ with the negation of the axiom of infinity instead, the natural numbers are just the ordinals of the universe. – Asaf Karagila Aug 26 '13 at 03:26
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Set theory is a theory of infinite sets, one could say that this is the point (that it serves us as a foundation for mathematics is extra, the cherry on top). What is remarkable about the axiom of infinity is not that it provides us with a formal surrogate for the natural numbers (I mean, we better do have something in our axioms that allows us to find such a surrogate, else, this would be a terrible theory of infinity, and an even worse foundation), but rather that this suffices, when combined with the other axioms, to give us the rich landscape that follows.

That said, the axiom of infinity is definitely used to prove many results beyond the construction of the naturals. "There are dense linear orders without end points" is an example. "There is an $\omega_1$-Aronszajn tree" is another. "Every Goodstein sequence terminates", etc. (Note that the last is an example of a statement about the natural numbers.)

Assuming the other axioms, the axiom of infinity is trivially equivalent to the statement "$\omega$ exists". In this sense, any use of the axiom of infinity is just using that there is a "set of natural numbers". But, as the examples above indicate, these uses can lead in many different directions, well beyond anything resembling the natural numbers (and, remarkably, also give us theorems about the natural numbers, as an additional bonus). One can wonder whether using the axiom is truly necessary for some of these results. The answer is yes and, not only that, but we in fact have a very good understanding of what results precisely need the use of the axiom of infinity. Namely, as Peter Smith's answer indicates, the theory resulting from replacing the axiom of infinity with its negation is just first order Peano arithmetic. Any theorem that goes beyond this framework needs the axiom of infinity. (This is not to say that any result which is not explicitly about natural numbers requires the axiom of infinity. We can code and discuss certain infinite objects in this setting, but not everything we would like. A precise formalization of this is carried out in the context of subsystems of second order arithmetic. In particular, the theory known as $\mathsf{ACA}_0$ allows us to prove some explicit results about some infinite sets, without requiring any commitments beyond the resources of first order Peano Arithmetic. See here for a brief introduction, and this book for details.)

In particular, the axiom of infinity goes well beyond the Peano axioms (and not simply in terms of consistency strength or expressive power). The Peano axioms are provable in $\mathsf{ZF}$ without the axiom of infinity. In this theory, you cannot prove that $\omega$ is a set, but you can prove that as a (perhaps proper) class, it satisfies both first and second order $\mathsf{PA}$. Typically, the second order formulation of the axioms subsumes the first order formulation, but not here, since in this theory one cannot prove the existence of infinite sets, so the second order version may be vacuously true, while the first order version still has content.

Glorfindel
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  • Thanks Andres. I have accepted your answer, but I wonder what you think of an alternative to the AOI that I proposed a few days ago at http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/472045/a-weaker-axiom-of-infinity Do agree with posters there that it is equivalent to AOI? – Dan Christensen Aug 28 '13 at 19:26
  • I'll take a look later today, thanks for the link. – Andrés E. Caicedo Aug 28 '13 at 19:28