Are very large cardinal axioms like $I_0$, $I_1$, $I_2$ consistent with $CH$ and $GCH$?
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4I'm pretty sure they're all unaffected by set-sized forcing, so certainly consistent with $CH$. – Noah Schweber Jan 22 '14 at 22:11
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@Noah: I'm not sure about all set-sized forcing, but certainly something as tiny as collapsing the continuum to $\aleph_1$ shouldn't affect those axioms. – Asaf Karagila Jan 22 '14 at 22:20
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My question is mainly about Godel's program in set theory. Godel conjectured that very large cardinal axioms refute the Continuum Hypothesis. – Jan 22 '14 at 22:49
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1@Asaf: quite right, of course e.g. collapsing the cardinal to $\omega$ ruins its large cardinal properties. :P But I think Levy-Solovay - which says that forcing with a poset of size $<\kappa$ preserves the measurability of $\kappa$ - generalizes to these large cardinal axioms (and indeed all known strong large cardinals) - and since $CH$ can be forced with a poset of size $2^{\aleph_0}$, we would need even less. In general, OP, Godel's conjecture is generally regarded as strongly refuted. – Noah Schweber Jan 22 '14 at 23:03
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1Jitra, your question is not about Godel's program. It's about three particular large cardinal axioms. If you wanted to ask about Godel's program, you should ask about Godel's program. If Woodin succeeds in his quest for Ultimate L, then this is going to be strongly refuted (as $\sf GCH$ will hold there), but generally all large cardinal axioms are pretty much consistent with $\sf CH$. As @Noah and I remarked (although implicitly) $\sf CH$ is a very local assertion about a very small cardinal compared to these cardinals. – Asaf Karagila Jan 22 '14 at 23:10
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I think consistency with GCH, meanwhile, is likely to be very hard. My understanding is that usually the way we show a large cardinal axiom is (relatively) consistent with GCH is to develop an inner model theory for that cardinal, which lets us build a smallest reasonable model containing that cardinal, and moreover gives us an $L$-like analysis of this model. Now the current state of inner model theory is well below a single supercompact, and even $I_2$ is wildly above a supercompact in terms of consistency strength; so I suspect this is still open (though I may be wrong?). – Noah Schweber Jan 22 '14 at 23:15
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@AsafKaragila Thanks for your useful comments.But I believe Godel's conjecture could be somehow true at least for $GCH$ by three reasons: First. Because it's Godel's conjecture! Second. Because it's true for a stronger statement than $GCH$ like $V=L$ which is inconsistent with large cardinals above $0^{\sharp}$. Third. It seems possible to extend the large cardinal tree over Reinhardt cardinal by weakening $ZFC$ using dropping $AC$.This possibly allows us to escape the Kunen inconsistency trap! Potentially these new large cardinals will be inconsistent with $GCH$ or even $CH$. – Jan 23 '14 at 00:52
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Jitra: (1) Proof by authority doesn't impress me. I've met Shelah face to face several times! :-) (2) And also $\sf GCH$ is consistent with stronger infinity axioms, also $\sf PFA$ is inconsistent with $\sf GCH$ sounds like a better excuse; (3) That's still an open question, much like the question whether or not $\sf GCH$ holds above a strongly compact cardinal. – Asaf Karagila Jan 23 '14 at 00:56
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1@NoahS, I think your remarks about inner models are a bit misplaced. The situation is that almost all the large cardinals are known to be consistent with the GCH by the method of forcing, and one doesn't need inner models for this. Almost all of the usual large cardinals are known to be preserved by the canonical forcing of the GCH. In the case of supercompact cardinals and the other cardinals out of reach of the inner model theory, this is the only way that we know relative consistency with GCH. – Joel David Hamkins Jan 23 '14 at 01:15
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@AsafKaragila: Of course Shelah is an inaccessible human but it will be a mistake if we compare humans who are working in a world with Gods who build that world! For example I never compare Cantor or Godel with other technical working logician and mathematicians. The main difference of God-like mathematicians is in their deep philosophical intuitions not in the technical complications of their theorems. The first parameter unfolds essentially new fields of mathematics and the second one makes that field larger and deeper. These are not same! – Jan 23 '14 at 01:20
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1I think that you're underestimating Shelah, and his awe inspiring contributions to the development and philosophical understanding of modern fields of logic (from actual logic, model theory, set theory, the fact that dependence on set theoretical assumptions can - and will - occur outside of set theory, the ability to see into PCF theory, stability arguments, and so on). – Asaf Karagila Jan 23 '14 at 01:24
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2@Jitra, nevertheless, Gödel seems just to have been wrong with his idea that large cardinals would settle the CH. It is a firmly established phenomenon, known under the umbrella of the Levy-Solovay theorem, that large cardinals are invariant by the forcing to force either CH or its negation, and thus none of our large cardinals can settle CH. And similarly, almost all the large cardinals are consistent with both GCH and its negation. – Joel David Hamkins Jan 23 '14 at 01:25
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But I am not going to argue with you anymore. That is going to be my last comment on the subject. – Asaf Karagila Jan 23 '14 at 01:25
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@JoelDavidHamkins: Unfortunately(!) it is completely true that large cardinal axioms plus $ZFC$ cannot determine the size of continuum. But let me to continue defending Godel and his program like a lawyer! :-) What Godel suggests as a program in his paper What is Cantor's continuum problem? is not completely clear. He says "any axiomatic system as a foundation of mathematics should be able to answer essential questions about usual mathematical objects like $\mathbb{R}$" and "ZFC cannot do this because it doesn't say anything about the size of $\mathbb{R}$". So... – Jan 23 '14 at 01:58
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@JoelDavidHamkins: ...we should change it. This change could be in different directions. In a revolutionary way we can replace ZFC with a better description of Plato's ideal world for example Quine's NF could be a candidate. Maybe the notion of large cardinality in this new foundations gives us more information about the size of continuum. A more conservative way could be enriching ZFC with some new intuitionally trivial axioms. Here Godel suggests large cardinal axioms just as a possible candidate not a certain solution. (Please look at his phrases in the paper.)... – Jan 23 '14 at 02:08
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@JoelDavidHamkins: ...Meanwhile I think if we describe Godel's conjecture/program with a wider point of view we can see in his paper Godel is describing what he is seeing in Cantor's heaven. He explicitly talks about this kind of mathematical intuition and compares it with our usual empirical intuition in a Pythagorian way. In fact he describes his prophecies as follows: In Cantor's heaven which I can see the followings: (1) $CH$, $GCH$ and $V=L$ are false. (2) Large cardinal axioms are true. (3) $CH$, $GCH$ and $V=L$ are false because existence of large cardinals and their nature.... – Jan 23 '14 at 02:31
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@JoelDavidHamkins:... So the good foundation of mathematics which is describing Cantor's heaven correctly should be a theory like T such that "T+large cardinal axioms" implies $V\neq L$, $\neg GCH$ and $\neg CH$. If ZFC is such a theory prove it and if it is not change it!. In my point of view the current observations on consistency of almost all large cardinal axioms with CH and GCH just says that ZFC is not the correct foundations of mathematics and we need to change it with some other theories or enrich it with some other axioms in order to obtain a clearer picture of Cantor's Heaven. – Jan 23 '14 at 02:41
4 Answers
It is known in the folklore (I could never find a source for the results) that $I_0$, $I_1$, and $I_2$ cardinals are all indestructible by small forcing, meaning that we can force ${\rm CH}$ over a universe with such a large cardinal without destroying it. I have the argument for $I_0$ written up in lecture notes here. It is basically Noah's argument with a few additional details.
Hamkins showed here that ${\rm GCH}$ can be forced over a universe with an $I_1$-cardinal without destroying it and very recently Dimonte and Friedman here showed that ${\rm GCH}$ can be forced without destroying an $I_0$, $I_1$, or $I_2$ cardinal. Indeed, they showed much more generally that any weakly increasing class function $F$ on the regular cardinals satisfying $\text{cf}(F(\alpha))>\alpha$ such that $F\upharpoonright\lambda$ is definable over $V_\lambda$ (where $\lambda$ comes from the definition of the $I_0$, $I_1$, $I_2$ cardinal) is consistent with such a large cardinal. Thus, almost any natually defined continuum pattern (on the regular cardinals), such as say $2^\kappa=\kappa^{++}$, is consistent with these large cardinals.
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1Wow, I didn't know the GCH question had been answered. Very cool! – Noah Schweber Jan 23 '14 at 02:17
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4I think it's worth mentioning that Laver proved the converse direction of Levy-Solovay for rank-into-rank cardinals (you mentioned the other direction as folk-lore) in the same paper that introduces the definability of ground models result you and Johnstone extended recently. – Everett Piper Jan 23 '14 at 03:55
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Here's a brief sketch of why, assuming $ZFC+I_0$ is consistent, so is $ZFC+CH+I_0$. (This is just Levy-Solovay.)
Suppose $\lambda$ is $I_0$ - that is, there is a nontrivial elementary embedding $j$ of $L(V_{\lambda+1})=M$ into itself with critical point $\kappa<\lambda$. Note that the critical point $\kappa$ of $j$ must be much larger than $2^{\aleph_0}$, and hence that the usual poset $\mathbb{P}$ forcing $CH$ is in $V_\kappa$. This means that $$j(\mathbb{P})=\mathbb{P}\text{ and }j\upharpoonright \mathbb{P}=id_\mathbb{P} .$$ So, taking $G$ a $\mathbb{P}$-generic filter, we have $j$"$G=G$ and we can lift the embedding $j:M\rightarrow M $ to an embedding $j^+: M[G]\rightarrow M[G] $ extending $j$. It's now straightforward to check that this $j^+$ witnesses that $\lambda$ is $I_0$ in $V[G]$; in particular, $M[G]=L(V_{\lambda+1})^{V[G]}$, because $G$ is of small rank.
I've written this hastily; please let me know if I screwed something up. EDIT: See Victoria Gitman's comment below.
As to GCH, as I stated in my comment I think this is likely to require inner model theory for the relevant cardinal, which is well above the current limits of inner model theory. But I may be wrong about this.
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2Noah, your argument is basically correct, but you have to be a little careful because $L(V_{\lambda+1})^{V[G]}$ is not equal to $L(V_{\lambda+1})[G]$ in this case. This does not matter because you can restrict the resulting embedding to $L(V_{\lambda+1})^{V[G]}$. The reason for the inequality is because $V_{\lambda+1}$ cannot be an element of $L(V_{\lambda+1})^{V[G]}$. See here – Victoria Gitman Jan 22 '14 at 23:51
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3The fact that $V_{\lambda+1}$ of $V$ cannot be an element of $L(V_{\lambda+1})^{V[G]}$ if $\mathbb P$ is any forcing adding a countable sequence to $\lambda$ is a highly nontrivial theorem of Woodin and Cramer. – Victoria Gitman Jan 23 '14 at 01:47
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@Victoria, very nice point - I hadn't thought of that, and I definitely didn't know that result! – Noah Schweber Jan 23 '14 at 02:19
There are some candidate axioms that are beginning to surface on the internet that appear to have large cardinal characteristics and could potentially settle questions like the CH. If they are consistent, they live somewhere in the area above $I_1$ but how they relate to $I_0$ is still not known. (At least not to me.)
I say they "appear" to have large cardinal characteristics because what counts as a large cardinal is not really formalized. Maybe it should be for a question about Godel's Program to really get a solid answer. Then again, maybe things are fine with our current understanding of the notion of large cardinal.
I mention them because they are a little uncharacteristic of large cardinals in that they don't seem to line up with the Levy-Solovay phenomenon in quite the right way. In particular, these axioms are affected (read: "killed") by small forcings like those that can alter the value of CH in the model.
This might not seem that interesting given that Hamkins has shown that certain kinds of large cardinals are already known to be sensitive to (read: "killed") by small forcing, and so they also don't seem to fall into the Levy-Solovay scheme. These large cardinals, say supercompact, are "prepared" through forcings that are designed to guarantee they remain supercompact in any further large forcing extension (thus they are called "indestructible"). But Hamkins shows that these same large cardinals are also vulnerable to small forcing as a result of the preparation. (There are obviously more details here and my apologies to Prof. Hamkins if I'm misreading some of your results in this area).
However, the large cardinals I allude to seem to be forcing-fragile for altogether different reasons. Some of these reasons include the newly discovered fact that ground models can be definable in their extensions, and structural (and maybe also semantic) requirements of the models involved in the relevant embeddings.
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Very interesting answer Everett. I think @Asaf 's comment about impact of PFA on CH is somehow related. (The equiconsistency of PFA and supercompacts is unknown yet.) – Jan 23 '14 at 05:19
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2Everett, thanks for this answer. I believe that you are referring to the main result of this paper: http://jdh.hamkins.org/superdestructibility/, which is that small forcing kills the indestructibility of any large cardinal. So if we take, say, "indestructibly supercompact" as a large cardinal notion, then this is a violation of the Levy-Solovay property. The results are extended in http://jdh.hamkins.org/dual/ and then later in http://jdh.hamkins.org/approximation-and-cover-properties/. – Joel David Hamkins Jan 23 '14 at 14:05
I just want to make one simple observation, which I think got lost in the history of the subject. Unfortunately, I do not speak German and so it will be nice if someone who knows German actually reads the sources (and corrects me if I am wrong).
I believe Cantor's original conjecture was that any infinite subset of reals either has the same size as the natural numbers or the same size as the real numbers.
Under AC this becomes the most cited version of CH, namely that $2^\omega=\omega_1$.
However, I believe it is a mistake to interpret Cantor's conjecture under ZFC. To me, one gets the feeling that Cantor's original CH is true by simply playing with actual sets, he himself showed that every closed set satisfies his original CH. And so the proper interpretation of Cantor's original CH under ZFC should be that every definable subset of reals is either countable or has the same size as the reals.
Of course, "definable" is open to interpretation as well, but large cardinals did settle a lot of these. For example, under large cardinals, there is no counterexample to Cantor's original CH among projective sets, sets in $L(\mathbb R)$, etc.
In this sense, Goedel was not wrong at all when he suggested that large cardinals may help settle the continuum hypothesis. In fact, far from it. The large cardinals freeze so much of the definable part of the universe that it is astonishing how right Goedel was. For example, Woodin showed that under large cardinals the theory of Chang model cannot be changed, he also showed that after collapsing the power set of the supercompact, the theory of $L(\Gamma_{uB},\mathbb R)$ cannot be changed, all of these is what Goedel anticipated and it is, at its roots, motivated by his beliefs.
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https://mathoverflow.net/questions/135912/when-was-the-continuum-hypothesis-born/135916#135916 – Asaf Karagila Apr 07 '19 at 17:24
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haha, it is okay, but i really meant Godel, i meant Godel anticipated that LC will settle instances of CH. – Grigor Apr 07 '19 at 17:25
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And I've added $\rm\LaTeX$. And a link in the comments to satisfy your historical curiosity. – Asaf Karagila Apr 07 '19 at 17:26
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in general, i do not believe that Cantor has done the awe inspiring part here, it is Godel, Cantor played with sets and stated what he felt the truth should be (i don't mean to strip Cantor of anything here, this is just as great as almost anything that has been done in math), Godel anticipated an entire subject, an entire way of thinking of sets and the laws that govern them, and this is huge. – Grigor Apr 07 '19 at 17:30
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somebody also corrected my grammar, perhaps there is a mathoverflow protocol to follow strict rules, by i simply disagree with capitalizing "I", and begining sentences with capital letters, i don't do it out of laziness but out of principal. i only capitalize what is really important and usually names as people hate, for some mysterious reason, when their name is in lower cases. having said this, i am fine with the correction, but it is funny. – Grigor Apr 07 '19 at 18:13
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1i also disagree with many instances of periods at the end of sentences. – Grigor Apr 07 '19 at 18:14
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Grigor, do you have a principal that tells you to not capitalize words, or is it a principle? :-) – Asaf Karagila Apr 08 '19 at 10:49