9

As far as I know, category theory is used mainly in topology. I have a dislike towards category theory, similar to my dislike of Bourbakism, and want to avoid it as much as I can. However, the head of our math department (where I have just started my PhD recently) made a speech where he sang praises for category theory and said that in the future every area of mathematics will be affected by it, and every mathematician who ignores category theory will be left in the gutter (his actual words). I was pretty depressed after this meeting. I want to get as objective an answer to this question:

Is it possible to survive in the current mathematics (during the next several decades) as a successful mathematician without caring about category theory? If it is not possible, then what is the minimum required amount of knowledge that every mathematician should get about category theory?

Sam Hopkins
  • 22,785
Hans
  • 210
  • 22
    Yes, it is possible to survive in current mathematics without caring about category theory. Mathematics is large (it contains multitudes); some areas don't interact with category theory at all. – Sam Hopkins Sep 13 '21 at 13:08
  • 36
    If I can give a more general comment, trying to avoid as much as possible any area of math is a failing strategy. Math thrives in unexpected connections. – Denis Nardin Sep 13 '21 at 13:08
  • 9
    "Category theory is used mainly in topology" [Citation needed] – Carl-Fredrik Nyberg Brodda Sep 13 '21 at 13:16
  • 8
    @Hans DenisNardin is not saying that it is not possible to avoid category theory -- they are saying that trying to avoid any specific area is not a very good idea (and I agree). – Carl-Fredrik Nyberg Brodda Sep 13 '21 at 13:19
  • 15
    The point isn't that it's impossible to avoid category theory. The point is that as a mathematician it is useful to know many things. On a separate note, don't pay attention to polemics, you can do mathematics you enjoy. – mme Sep 13 '21 at 13:21
  • 9
    This is the first time I have ever voted to close a question, because usually that is done to shut down any genuine discussion of professional issues. However, this "question" is wholly based on ignorance and malice. – Paul Taylor Sep 13 '21 at 13:30
  • 6
    I would say singing praises and having dislike are equally unreasonable stances – მამუკა ჯიბლაძე Sep 13 '21 at 13:32
  • 20
    @PaulTaylor yes I'm ignorant, that's why I'm asking this question. – Hans Sep 13 '21 at 13:35
  • 7
    I mostly agree with Tim Campion's answer, but I would add that it also higly depends on the kind of math you're doing. Some areas use a lot of category theory ( not just topology) and you can't survive without it, other don't really but are somehow prone to such uses and even though you might get away without it, it might be good for you to learn about it, and others areas are just very far from it... So, as a starting PhD student, I would recomend you to ask their opinion on this to your advisor(s) and peoples working in fields that are of interest to you. – Simon Henry Sep 13 '21 at 13:54
  • 24
    This question reminds me of the kind of response many of us get when describing our profession, "Oh, I've always hated math.." and the underlying sentiment that they don't actually need it in life. Certainly many mathematicians don't need category theory in any way, but the phrasing of this question (and other comments on the subject around the site) strike me as embodying an anti-intellectual attitude towards the subject which for some reason is more acceptable in the math community than a similar distaste for [name your favorite mainstream area]. – David Ben-Zvi Sep 13 '21 at 14:28
  • 10
    @DavidBen-Zvi I think between the original question and your comment one sees exactly the source of this attitude: category theory is presented as high-brow mathematics. Compare: many people dislike combinatorics, but one would never call them "anti-intellectual" -- instead, one would say they "don't like to get their hands dirty". – Vivek Shende Sep 13 '21 at 15:26
  • 6
    I have voted to close this question because I am more than tired by this kind of question. Nobody would never ask such a question by replacing 'category' by anything else you prefer. It is based on prejudices and I would like to share my annoyance here. – Philippe Gaucher Sep 13 '21 at 16:18
  • 32
    It feels to me like some respondents here are relitigating derogatory/ignorant comments they may have heard from other people who sneered at category theory, rather than responding to an inexperienced student who has just been told "every mathematician who ignores category theory will be left in the gutter". I find that line deplorable, and I would still find it deplorable if the words "category theory" were replaced by "Banach spaces" or "operator algebras" or "PDE", etc – Yemon Choi Sep 13 '21 at 16:46
  • 18
    I'm mostly trying to stay out of fights on the internet, but I'm just kind of weirded out that category theory seems to constantly attract a sort of quasi-religious devotion from its fans. It seems way out of proportion to its actual importance, and I don't understand the sociology here. My own thinking is moderately categorical, though I try to be eclectic. But when I start seeing these nutcases on the internet I want to pretend that I know nothing about the subject. It's just embarrassing. – Andy Putman Sep 13 '21 at 17:01
  • 4
    @Andy Putman: I don't know much category theory, and I have rarely felt the need to learn more (although this may change, as it seems a very useful for some things I've recently been looking at), but it clearly provides unifying language and principles to a lot of contemporary pure mathematics. That said, I can't help but feel that history is repeating itself when one looks back at what was said about quaternions in the late 1800s, about lattices in the 1940s and 1950s, about catastrophe theory in the 1970s and 1980s, about chaos and complexity, $\ldots$ – Dave L Renfro Sep 13 '21 at 17:13
  • 6
    @DaveLRenfro: You'll notice that now that the hype has died down, all the subjects you list are just ordinary little corners of math, like everything else. None of them lived up to their initial rhetoric. – Andy Putman Sep 13 '21 at 17:19
  • 1
    @Andy Putman: It's hard for me to conceive that category theory might one day be another small corner of math, but of the things I listed, someone in the late 1940s might have said the same thing about lattices, which at the time were "seen everywhere" in general topology, set theory, functional analysis, logic, algebra, etc. – Dave L Renfro Sep 13 '21 at 17:28
  • 4
    As concrete advice to the OP: you might find the answers to this older question https://mathoverflow.net/questions/19356/how-has-what-every-mathematician-should-know-changed valuable in the broader context of People's Views On What Everyone Should Do Or Know. FWIW I think Noah's answer to your question is a wise one. – Yemon Choi Sep 13 '21 at 17:30
  • 8
    Two conflicting comments: 1. I think that the "minimal required amount of knowledge" about any subject for a mathematician, even one working in that subject, is quite a bit lower than often claimed. E.g. Most algebraic geometers I know would only be able to read 10% or so of what gets published in the math.AG tag on arxiv. A significant portion of them know very little category theory, despite AG being more categorical than most subjects. If you really don't like any one subject, it's not that hard to avoid it. 2. You can draw inspiration from almost any part of math... (cont.) – dhy Sep 13 '21 at 17:57
  • 7
    ...There have been a lot of comments on the interconnectedness of mathematics, and how categorical notions appear in other subjects, etc. A more indirect (but IMO more important) argument: every field has some standard collection of proof strategies and philosophies. Learning other fields exposers you to a wider variety. E.g. I have a purely algebraic AG paper where the main argument is inspired by the use of Sobolev spaces to construct Donaldson invariants. On the other hand, my experience is that this sort of inspiration only happens when you find the field in question inspiring... (cont.) – dhy Sep 13 '21 at 18:11
  • 8
    (I know this is tautological.) I've never found it useful to learn subjects of math that I don't care for just because they were supposed to be "important." If they really are important, usually I eventually see those tools used in some very cool way, and then I feel motivated to learn them. – dhy Sep 13 '21 at 18:13
  • 9
    @AndyPutman: There are certain topics that tend to attract people at a younger age. It's quite rare to find an 18-year old who is really into Symplectic Geometry, but it's much more common with Number Theory, Logic, and Category Theory (and I say this with great sympathy as someone who thought Number Theory was the one true topic when I was 18). I think this kind of fervor about the "one true way" is common among the young. Of course some people stick with that opinion after they're no longer 18. – Noah Snyder Sep 13 '21 at 18:49
  • 2
    @NoahSnyder: I mostly roll my eyes when young people do this, and I certainly had many embarrassing opinions at that age. But there are an alarming number of purported adults who cheer them on. Like so many ways in which our culture is degenerating, I blame the internet. – Andy Putman Sep 13 '21 at 20:31
  • 3
    I don't know whether you are satisfied with the answers you have received or want more. If you want more, you certainly shouldn't be discouraged by having the questions closed - if you edit the question to be less opinion-based, it will most likely be reopened. This would likely consist of (1) deleting the comments about disliking category theory or replacing them with something else, (2) explaining what kind of mathematics you do or want to do. People will be able to give much more precise answers on how category theory is or isn't needed for your area than in general. – Will Sawin Sep 14 '21 at 16:25
  • @WillSawin: What is happening right now is a total abuse: this question has been closed with 5 out of 5 votes. Next, the reopen process got completed once with 3/3 "leave closed" votes. A second reopen process had the same fate with the same score. Now a THIRD reopen process has been triggered! And all this IN THE TIMESPAN OF A SINGLE DAY! Don't you think it is a bit too much, and too aggressive? And for what? For a question that invites more to chatting, rather than to giving objective answers - which is exactly what MO is not (a discussion forum, or a mailing list). O.P., PLEASE STOP THIS! – Alex M. Sep 14 '21 at 18:21
  • 7
    @AlexM. Is O.P. responsible for this? I wouldn't think question askers can trigger reopen votes without editing. – Will Sawin Sep 14 '21 at 18:26
  • 3
    @AlexM. The question currently has three votes to reopen. I’m not much into reviewing, but I think that the way it works is that any vote to reopen the question pushes the question into the reopen review queue unless it is already pending there, and apparently, this may happen repeatedly if a new vote to reopen arrives after the previous review was finished. Note that anyway, a “leave closed” review has hardly any effect; what matters are the votes. – Emil Jeřábek Sep 14 '21 at 19:17

3 Answers3

38

When I was young I didn’t like sheaves or cohomology, so wanted to find something that was algebraic but didn’t involve too much sheaves or cohomology. I didn’t really need to know much about either to get a tenure track job. But now I’m a more mature person and a more mature mathematician, and I’ve learned to stop worrying and accept cohomology.

All of this is to say that everyone in comments is right, you can certainly be a mathematician without caring about category theory, but strictly avoiding a subject entirely is going to make you an immature mathematician and hold back your development. You don’t have to love category theory, but it’s a good idea to stop hating it.

Noah Snyder
  • 27,820
28

I say many (most?) mathematicians with thriving research careers completely ignore large parts of mathematics in their work. Probably, they don't even remember what they learned in some of their introductory graduate courses, unless they teach them, and would be unable to pass some comprehensive PhD exams without preparation. What you don't use you forget.

Disliking some parts of mathematics is a way of finding what you really enjoy, a completely natural process. Being broadly educated helps, as long as it does not interfere with research. Learning and doing math are somewhat different activities. One cannot do math without learning some. On the other hand, it is possible to enjoy learning so much that you never actually do anything. There has to be a balance.

In particular, most math research can surely be done without category theory. If you ever need to learn what is, say, a colimit, just read Wikipedia, and follow the references there.

Short term, grad students should focus on finding the kind of math they enjoy doing, and also on passing their exams.

Personally, I revere broadly educated mathematicians, and I strive to become one. Is it a must for a successful career? Not really.

  • 1
    Of course, what you say of mathematicians in the first paragraph is true of most working professionals as well. I imagine most lawyers who have been practicing law for decades would fail a bar exam if you gave it to them on the spot. – Sam Hopkins Sep 13 '21 at 15:49
  • 5
    @SamHopkins Never mind PhD exams; I almost regret mentioning them here. My point is that many research mathematicians are not broadly educated, and it works, and moreover, I suspect we would lose many fine researchers if broader education is enforced. – Igor Belegradek Sep 13 '21 at 16:56
26

You can look at the edit history of this post to see previous versions, which took a different tack whose thread I have honestly lost. I want to take a different tack, though.

What makes this question peculiar is the fact that if you substitute any other area of math for "category theory" in the question, the resultant discussion would look quite different. That is consider the following dialog for various values of $X$:

Professor : Any mathematician who ignores $X$ will be left in the gutter.

Student : I have a distaste for $X$. What's the minimum I should know about $X$ to get by?

I invite the reader to perform the thought experiment of considering the different reactions this exchange would elicit for various values of $X$, such as set theory, group theory, ring theory, combinatorics, functional analysis, topology, category theory.

When I run this thought experiment, I find that in most cases, the professor's pronouncement admits basically two interpretations:

  • a strong interpretation, where they mean you must be actively be keeping up with current research in $X$.

  • a weak interpretation, where they mean that you must have an idea of what $X$ is good for, and that you should be prepared to reach for tools from $X$ when the situation calls for it in your own research.

For most values of $X$, the strong interpretation is a clear stretch, and the onlooker will charitably assume that the weak interpretation is intended. For most values of $X$, that's all there is to it. But when $X$ is category theory, unlike other values of $X$, there's additionally a flame war among the onlookers.

After surviving the latest flame war, I have a theory as to why this is so. My theory is that for most values of $X$, there's a general understanding of how to formulate a weak interpretation of the professor's statement. But when it comes to category theory, people may not be so clear on what kind of weak interpretation should be understood. I propose to remedy this situation with the following pronouncement:

Category theory is good for understanding the naturality vs. choice-dependence of constructions.

This is intended to be parallel to the following pronouncement, which I believe is widely-understood among mathematicans:

Group theory is good for understanding symmetries.

or

Set theory is good for quotienting by equivalence relations.

In each case, the pronouncement doesn't give a complete picture of what $X$ is good for, but gives some kind of launching-off point.

Just as it's reasonable for the professor to say

  1. "questions of symmetry are everywhere in math -- be ready to reach for group-theoretic tools to help understand them"

it's similarly reasonable to say

  1. "questions of naturality are everywhere in math -- be ready to reach for category-theoretic tools to help understand them".

I hope we can all think of examples illustrating (1). Perhaps the situation is different in the case of (2), and perhaps this points to a shortcoming in general mathematical education. Here's a small example pulled from differential geometry: Let $f : X \to Y$ be a smooth map of manifolds, and let $\omega$ be a differential form on $Y$. Then there is a pullback form $f^\ast(\omega)$ on $X$. You might define $f^\ast(\omega)$ in terms of coordinates, and then wonder whether your definition depends on the choice of coordinates. You can prove that it doesn't, and you can prove things like $g^\ast \circ f^\ast = (f \circ g)^\ast$. The statements of each of these facts are very naturally stated category-theoretically (though the proofs are mostly geometry). There are various routine coordinate-based manipulations you can do on differential forms which are justified by these facts, which again can be nicely summarized in category-theoretic language.

A couple of takeaways from this last example:

  • The use of category-theoretic language here is not supposed to be earth-shattering or anything. It's pretty banal, really.

  • We could continue the flame war by arguing about whether it's necessary to use category-theoretic language here (of course, strictly speaking it isn't). But we don't devolve into such arguments when it comes to examples of using group theoretic-language to understand symmetry. I have a dream that one day we will stop treating category theory differently from group theory in this respect!

Tim Campion
  • 60,951
  • @mme That's totally fair. But clearly it's impossible for the internet to diagnose exactly which mathematical results some particular person is going to need to understand in order to get by in their mathematical career. Even if we had a better idea of the OP's research interests, it would not really be possible to answer such a question. That last paragraph is more addressed toward the general attitude of trying to minimize reliance on particular areas of math. – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 13:46
  • 1
    I'd rather say that understanding (inverse) limits is understanding intersections :) – Jochen Wengenroth Sep 13 '21 at 13:53
  • 1
    @JochenWengenroth Nice catch :)! There is definitely a more direct mathematical analogy between inverse limits and intersections (which I'd summarize by saying that both are limits in the category-theoretic sense, whereas a union is a colimit). I actually deliberately used unions rather than intersections because my point was meant at a more meta-level than this mathematical analogy, and I didn't want to distract from the meta-level point. – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 13:56
  • 18
    There are whole areas of mathematics where even categorically-inflected ideas are rarely if ever used. I agree that there are quite a lot of areas of mathematics where mathematicians should have a good understanding of the notion of an inverse limit of groups, but when I was in grad school I spoke to mathematicians in hard analysis who didn't even know the definition of a group, and they could do research in their subject just fine. – Will Sawin Sep 13 '21 at 14:03
  • @WillSawin That's wild! I thought I had safely classified the definition of a group as something every mathematician should know. If that's not the case, then I'm willing to admit I am not qualified to make these kinds of generalizations... I guess one clarification seems relevant to me: even if a mathematician doesn't know the definition of group, then do they at least have some sense that "groups = symmetry"? that O(n) is an example of a group? – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 14:08
  • It’s hard for me to imagine what kinds of analysis care about neither Fourier Analysis nor Noether’s theorem about conserved quantities and symmetries. Which is probably a flaw in my imagination, but still. What kind of analysis are we talking about? – Noah Snyder Sep 13 '21 at 14:16
  • @WillSawin Just to pile on questions about your offhand comment -- if an analyst doesn't know the definition of a group, then do they maybe at least know the definition of a Hilbert space? Or a topological vector space? Like, even if the definition of a group per se is not something every mathematician needs to know, then perhaps it's still safe to say that every mathematician needs to know at least one definition from abstract algebra? – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 14:20
  • 2
    @NoahSnyder I think it is perfectly possible and probably quite common to understand both Fourier analysis and Noether's theorem without involving any group theory therein. Although of course group theory gives a (deeper/different) understanding. – Carl-Fredrik Nyberg Brodda Sep 13 '21 at 14:25
  • I mean, Burnside’s book does a tremendous amount of group theory without using the abstract algebra viewpoint on groups. So you can certainly do a lot of any area without Noether’s viewpoint on algebra. That said, not even knowing the definition of group just seems obtuse to me. Like we’re not teaching separate graduate classes on Fourier Analysis, one for people who know the definition of a group and one for people who don’t. – Noah Snyder Sep 13 '21 at 14:26
  • 2
    @NoahSnyder The course I took on Fourier analysis never involved groups. – Carl-Fredrik Nyberg Brodda Sep 13 '21 at 14:27
  • 6
    @TimCampion I may be overselling this a bit. They had certainly seen the definition of the group, and they remembered two of the three axioms, but not associativity. It's of course possible that a mathematician who uses groups quite frequently forgets to specify the axiom of associativity, but I think the way this came up is we were talking about how they didn't use groups in their work and thus might not remember the definition. But I think they did have an idea of what groups are good for. – Will Sawin Sep 13 '21 at 14:29
  • 1
    @TimCampion I don't want to pile on, as I think you give thoughtful and genuine answers, but even with your Edit 2 I think you are not really in the mindset of applied analysts and combinatorists. And yes there are categorical structures there in what these people study, but that doesn't mean they need any awareness of the categorical perspective to prove nice things about these objects. (Speaking as someone who sees themselves as a very categorically-inclined analyst, up until I encounter The Online World Of Categorically Inclined People) – Yemon Choi Sep 13 '21 at 15:32
  • 1
    @YemonChoi One can always reinvent the wheel, but should one? I am a combinatorialist. I have never used Yoneda's lemma or inverse limits. Heck, I hardly even need infinite sets! However, I am extremely grateful to have seen categories, universal constructions, and other abstract nonsense smorgasbord. It certainly has changed the way I think --- and I can honestly claim that there are are quite a few results that I would not be able to prove without that exposure. I can even point to specific instances on how those ideas helped, but it would be hand-wavy and involve lots of dead-ends. – Boris Bukh Sep 13 '21 at 16:08
  • @BorisBukh Then I stand slightly corrected, although this may be a generational thing. But I do think that people with an affinity for the structuralist point of view sometimes overlook in their zeal those who have a more materialist and "make lots of arbitrary choices" POV. Certainly the categorical perspective has informed what I do, but in my collaborations crucial input has come from people who really don't follow that perspective, never took any "grad school classes" (USian klaxon) in categories or cohomology, etc – Yemon Choi Sep 13 '21 at 16:43
  • 2
    @YemonChoi That's totally fair! Let a thousand flowers bloom and all that! I do strongly suspect that "every" mathematician has some deeply-felt mathematical intuitions which I would personally recognize as being category-theoretic in nature even if they don't, but without substantiating that claim it's really just an arrogant proclamation which quite reasonably rubs many people the wrong way. I can see how my answer could be read as just such an arrogant proclamation... I think I tried to address this with a bunch of weasel words, but probably I've fallen into the usual trap. – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 17:43
  • 2
    Agreed, Tim, don't beat yourself up over it. I have sat in conversations where people who like combinatorics are dismissive of category theory, or where people who like Banach algebras are dismissive of combinatorics, or where people who do category theory say that functional analysts are just working in the wrong category, etc... In any case, your answer was still more considered than the (inexperienced) phrasing of the OP – Yemon Choi Sep 13 '21 at 17:49
  • 1
    Comparing OP's question to a question about set theory is highly objectionable. Take any reasonable sample of successful modern mathematicians, e. g., recent Fields medal winners or such - more than half will have no mention of categories or functors in their published work; I suspect some have none in any papers they cite or that cite them. Now compare that to the notions of a union or a function... – Kostya_I Sep 13 '21 at 23:17
  • @Kostya_I I don't follow -- it seems to me that if recent Fields medalists don't mention categories or functors in their citations, then the comparable question is whether their citations mention sets or functions -- of course they don't -- sets and functions are too elementary to be mentioned in Fields medal citations. Similarly for category theory. – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 23:19
  • @Kostya_I My apologies, I see I misread what you wrote to refer to the citations written by the Fields committee for medal recipients. I think we agree that the number of papers which do not use, e.g. the notion of a function at least implicitly, is quite small. I imagine that e.g. the number of papers which do not invoke (implicitly) the notion of composition of functions (or continuous maps, or linear maps, etc.) is just as small. So just as most papers contain some (not-necessarily-interesting) set theory, most papers also contain some (not-necessarily-interesting) category theory. – Tim Campion Sep 13 '21 at 23:38
  • 2
    @TimCampion When you say "let a thousand flowers bloom," I hope you're not secretly plotting to out your enemies so that you can eliminate them... – Timothy Chow Sep 14 '21 at 02:29
  • 1
    @TimothyChow mwahahahahaha! :) – Tim Campion Sep 14 '21 at 02:30
  • Oh gosh, I only just followed that link and now I must apologize for my ignorance of Chinese history. – Tim Campion Sep 14 '21 at 02:40
  • 1
    @TimCampion, when I use functions, I quite explicitly use set theory, since that's what a definition of a function is based on. When I use a composition of functions, or a continuous map, or a linear map, I quite explicitly use... set theory, for the same reason. No category theory is needed to define or understand or work with those notions. How does any paper that invokes them contain category theory? – Kostya_I Sep 14 '21 at 07:08
  • @TimCampion, I guess my main objection is the notion that whenever someone uses a morphism, or a functor, or a natural transformation, or even a categorical proof, they use category theory. But arguably, they only start really using it when they deal with so many categories simultaneously (or even reason about categories unknown at the moment of reasoning) that they need/benefit from the general formalism. When I count, I'm not using ring theory just because integers form a ring. – Kostya_I Sep 14 '21 at 09:22
  • @Kosya_I If you're interested in this game, you're free to count however you want. I also think that "every" mathematician should know some ring theory and group theory, revelations in this comment section notwithstanding. – Tim Campion Sep 14 '21 at 12:37
  • @Kostya_I Are you using ring theory if you are say to yourself "Hm... this operation on widgets reminds me of the main step in the proof of Hilbert's basis theorem, maybe I can find more analogies with commutative rings, e.g. how about trying to define extension of widgets?" My personal answer is yes, even if the widget approach to the boofoo conjecture you are working on fails entirely. – Boris Bukh Sep 14 '21 at 14:25
  • @BorisBukh, sure, I agree; analogies with category theory may be useful to some (and not so much to others). There are also other important reasons to learn category theory. What I object to is equating the use that you are describing to the use in the sense every mathematician uses basic set theory. To me, a use of category theory, in the narrow sense, is when you go beyond examples of categories and functors etc. to a theory that organizes them in a systematic way. – Kostya_I Sep 14 '21 at 15:27
  • I deleted my comment because it refers to a different answer which is no longer here. – mme Sep 14 '21 at 16:25