In this figure from Wikipedia, we know that electron's wavefunction collapse at screen F, causing an interference pattern. Does it mean that in this case when the wavefront arrives at the screen, the screen does something similar as a 'measurement' to cause the wavefunction to collapse? If so, why wouldn't the electron's wavefunction collapse at screen S2 which will produce no interference pattern at the screen F, since the wavefront first arrives at the screen between slits B and C?
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3My standard comment: there is no such thing as collapse. – my2cts Jan 21 '20 at 10:28
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The wave function is a mathematical description of the wave associated with the electron. It exists on a piece of paper or in the mind of an observer. When the electron goes from a free traveling entity to one that has been captured, a different description must be used. – R.W. Bird Jan 21 '20 at 20:05
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The wave function describes the quantum mechanical ensemble, not a single electron. It is similar to a probability distribution. The probability distribution of a pair of dice does not collapse, either, when they land on the table. – FlatterMann Sep 24 '22 at 21:09
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Doesn't your picture show that it does collapse at S2 (and then spread out again)? – WillO Jul 04 '23 at 17:51
5 Answers
... we know that electron's wavefunction collapse at screen F, causing an interference pattern
No, interference does not require collapse. The screen with the slits effectively modulates the electron wave function with a function that produces the interference pattern in the far field. What then happens is that the absorption of the electron at the screen causes it to be localized at a specific location with a probability distribution given by the interference pattern. The localization of the electron at the point where it is absorbed does not require collapse, as understood in the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. All that is necessary is that the measurement basis of the absorption process implies a localization. Such a measurement basis is determined by the atoms in the screen that would absorb the electron.
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"Such a measurement basis is determined by the atoms in the screen that would absorb the electron." - And that is the required irreversible process right there. In non-relativistic quantum mechanics we describe that process in an abstract way by the Born rule. In relativistic field theory we usually don't even care about specifying a local measurement process and go to normalized outgoing beam intensity at infinity right away, which is what the S-matrix formalism describes. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 04:37
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Fundamentally, the process that absorbs an electron can also emit an electron. Therefore, the process is reversible. – flippiefanus Sep 25 '22 at 08:38
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You are welcome to show me the pair production events caused by two 511kEV gammas. Annihilation and pair production are, indeed, reversible events, but the pair production process involving exclusively two photons near the threshold has such a small phase space that it simply doesn't happen. We have to go to extreme gamma energies, far above the threshold, to observe even a few of these events. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 08:54
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Just because a process is statistically unlikely, does not mean it is not physically allowed. Strict reversibility would assume the exact conditions in reverse so that the probability amplitudes come out exactly the same. – flippiefanus Sep 25 '22 at 08:58
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Again, my last comment: there is a difference between what is allowed and what actually happens. Irreversible processes are what happens in reality all the time. Nobody can wait a Poincare Recurrence time to eventually see the invers process. Not even the universe. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 09:05
This is an insightful question. Actually, the comment by @my2cts is right on the mark.
"Wave function collapse" really doesn't happen. Instead, the microscopic quantum state (location of photon's impact on the screen, which is quantum mechanically indeterminate) gets correlated to a macroscopic state (your perception of the location of the photon's impact on the screen). Your perception state, too, is quantum mechanically indeterminate. What you see is one randomly selected location out of the entire range of possible locations (with the randomness weighted according to the squared amplitude of the wavefunction at each location). If the wavefunction of the whole system is expanded to include you, there will be an infinite number of yous, each seeing the photon apparently hitting a different location on the screen.
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2Well, in this picture the collapse corresponds to picking out the version of you that sees a particular realization of the experiment. We've simply shifted the focus to a later stage, nothing changed. – Ruslan Jan 21 '20 at 15:13
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I think you may find it helpful to question the notion that the mathematics of states in Hilbert space maps in a one-to-one character to the physical states of physical systems. There is no a priori need for this to be the case, and the physical evidence is consistent with it not being the case. – Andrew Steane Sep 24 '22 at 21:54
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The "microscopic/macroscopic state" model is very popular, but personally I find it utterly confusing. The physical process of a measurement is crystal clear: it is the irreversible transfer of energy from or to the measurement system. What the measurement system does with that energy (i.e. what the amplification mechanism that converts the micro to the macro state looks like) is entirely irrelevant to the quantum system. As soon as it has lost its energy, the actual measurement process is over. – FlatterMann Sep 24 '22 at 22:34
As you can see from the comments, wavefunction collapse is just one of the interpretations (Coppenhagen) in QM, actually a very interesting one.
Now to your question, why does the electron's wavefunction not collapse at the first screen?
The answer is the two little slits. As the wave reaches the first screen, you say that the wavefront reaches the screen first between the slits. This implies that you think of the wave as propagating in the displayed fashion.
In reality, the electron as it propagates, a QM object, its trajectory is undefined. It takes all possible paths. Yes QM is a tricky beast and it is very unintuitive to imagine.
What really happens is that the electron as it propagates, reaches the first screen and continues to propagate through the slits, that is why there is no decoherence with the environment, that would cause the electron's superposition to reduce to an eigenstate, with a certain eigenvalue (the position of the electron on the screen).
The photons do not have a well defined trajectory. The diagram shows them as if they were little balls travelling along a well defined path, however the photons are delocalised and don't have a specific position or direction of motion. The photon is basically a fuzzy sphere expanding away from the source and overlapping both slits. That's why it goes through both slits. The photon position is only well defined when we interact with it and collapse its wave function. This interaction would normally be with the detector.
Shooting a single photon through a double slit
What confuses you is that you try to imagine the wave as reaching the part of the screen between the slits first, then decohere, and cause the collapse of the wavefunction. What really happens is that the electron takes all paths and finds a way through the slits. Yes it is very hard to understand how the wave takes all the paths, and knows not to collapse because there are two slits to go through. This is QM.
The most intuitive way of looking at interference that I have encountered is Feynmann's Path Integral Formulation. Loosely speaking, if you have a photon (or anything, really) in location A and want to work out its chance of moving to B, you imagine it taking every possible path between the two at the same time.
How two photons interfere in a double slit experiment
When the electron reaches the second screen, it does not find any slits to propagate through, and finally interacts with the screen, leaving a dot on the screen. That is what you call the collapse of the wavefunction. Its position becomes localized.
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Thanks for the answer. I asked this question because this may be a way to test Bohm Mechanics. So in your answer, the electron is taking every possible path at the same time and finds a way through the slits. Does that mean, that if I shoot N electrons one at a time to the slits, the final screen will detect N electrons and no electrons are found at screen S2? Because in Bohm Mechanics the N electrons are taken to be in an ensemble with different initial conditions, even the electrons reached the final screen displays interference pattern, there will be electrons didn't go through the slits. – Winniebear Jan 22 '20 at 00:19
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@Winniebear you are correct, no electrons are detected at S2. I actually asked a question about this, and each and every electron that was shot, will leave a dot on F. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/506916/in-a-double-slit-experiment-does-each-and-every-photon-leave-a-dot-on-the-scree – Árpád Szendrei Jan 22 '20 at 04:36
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@Winniebear In a quantum mechanical setting an electron is not an object. It does not have a center of mass coordinate and one can not define a path for it in any rational way. Even the statement that "the electron took all possible paths" is entirely meaningless. One can say that the electron field is in a superposition of all possible states but that is a completely different statement from that of paths in a pseudo-classical particle picture. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 00:29
In this figure from Wikipedia, we know that electron's wavefunction collapse at screen F, causing an interference pattern. Does it mean that in this case when the wavefront arrives at the screen, the screen does something similar as a 'measurement' to cause the wavefunction to collapse? If so, why wouldn't the electron's wavefunction collapse at screen S2 which will produce no interference pattern at the screen F, since the wavefront first arrives at the screen between slits B and C?
The interference pattern is not caused by the collapse, but by the evolution described by the Schroedinger equation.
Only the fact that the pattern is made of many small spots instead of continuous variation of some measurable quantity requires us to introduce additional modification of the psi function, the so-called collapse of the psi function. This process is not assumed to be described by the Schroedinger equation; instead it introduced by us to take into account the fact that after the record is created, it is certain that the electron was at a definite small spot of the screen at the time of impact.
If we observed records of electrons on the screen S2, we would assume collapse happened there as well. But usually there is no such sensitive recording screen at S2 in this kind of experiment, so there are no records, so we do not assume collapse there.
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Quanta are combinations of energy, momentum, angular momentum and charges that get exchanged irreversibly between quantum fields (in this case the quantum field of electrons) and external systems (in this case the screen).
The important piece here is the word "irreversible". We are removing the electron energy (in classical term this would be the kinetic energy of the electrons) from the quantum field at the screen, which is different from the process at the slit openings, which does not remove energy from the field (and is therefor reversible).
The collapse meme is a very unfortunate one. It should be banished once and for all from the terminology of physics, if for no other reason than that is has absolutely no explanatory value. In the Copenhagen interpretation the distinction between reversible processes that do not remove the energy of the quantum from the system (often represented by the Schroedinger equation) and irreversible processes (represented by the Born rule) is made extremely obvious. This aspect of the structure of the conventional theory is often not sufficiently emphasized in the classroom, which seems to leave a lot of students wondering why there is such an "artificial" divide between the two cases. It is obviously not artificial, at all, but an experimentally verifiable feature of nature: energy either stays in the quantum system or it gets removed by the measurement.
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1but we can determine the location of a particle without absorbing its energy – Andrew Steane Sep 24 '22 at 21:51
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@AndrewSteane That's exactly the point: we can't. All measurements have to be irreversible processes that remove energy from the quantum system (there is also the case where we add energy, in experimental physics that is called "absorption spectroscopy"). If we want "a quantum" to have a well defined physical meaning, then it is automatically tied to an irreversible process (preparation, emission and measurement, absorption). – FlatterMann Sep 24 '22 at 22:29
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@flippiefanus That is a common assumption but it is trivially false. If I direct the beam of a flashlight into the sky, then the energy in that light is irreversibly lost. "One can not catch a beam of light" as they say in relativity. One could say that "all processes in a closed system are reversible", but then we simply end up with things like Schroedinger's Cat and the Poincare Recurrence Theorem. In reality in a relativistic universe energy is always lost in such a way that we can't get it back into the system and every local process is, except for a short time scale, irreversible. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 04:27
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@flippiefanus What is not fundamental about emitting light into the vacuum? You may not be used to thinking about that as an irreversible process, but it is the archetypical irreversible process (and the starting point of quantum mechanics). That light never comes back to the source. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 04:39
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Depends what you mean by the light being lost. If it is because the light is somehow absorbed eventually then it becomes a complex process where the complexity can make it irreversible. If you just mean the light is propagating away from you, then the basic process is reversible, because linear propagation is fundamentally reversible. In principle the beam of light can propagate right back to the source without violating any physics. – flippiefanus Sep 25 '22 at 08:35
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@flippiefanus I don't know what principle you are talking about. There is no microscopic process in which a photon with momentum p reverses direction and suddenly becomes a photon with momentum -p. That is completely ruled out by momentum conservation. Infinity is the darkest dark there is. It swallows every bit of energy that flows towards it. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 08:45
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1That is not what reversibility means. A fundamental process is reversible if the inverse process is physically allowed. For example, if a light source produces a beam of light, then the inverse process would be where the light propagates backward to focus on the source in exactly the same why it was emitted. – flippiefanus Sep 25 '22 at 08:50
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This is my last comment on this topic: the process where an electromagnetic wave spontaneously reverses direction does not exist. I have no idea why you are even arguing about this. A light beam once emitted into an empty space is irreversibly lost energy. It does not matter that we could, in principle, put a phase conjugating mirror in there. In reality there are no phase conjugating mirrors around us. We are not defining physics as that which happens inside of phase conjugating cavities. Physics is that which happens locally in an infinite surrounding vacuum. – FlatterMann Sep 25 '22 at 09:00
