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I'm having an argument (discussion) with a referee. I claim that the effects of expansion can be seen in local dynamics. That the orbit of Saturn is affected infinitesimally by the expansion of space and if we had an instrument sensitive enough, we could measure it.

He claims that there are dozens if not thousands of experiments that prove that geometry of spacetime is locally flat and if your instrument isn't sensitive enough to measure any curvature, then you should consider it flat.

I have trouble understanding this. We know for a fact that all of our laboratories on Earth are in curved spacetime. How can any experiment on Earth ever measure flat spacetime?

I know we have pendulums that can measure the attraction between two masses, but even those masses in a perfectly balanced pendulum will feel the tidal forces. So what is the smallest acceleration we can measure in a lab experiment?

  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – ACuriousMind Jan 23 '21 at 12:04
  • You seem to have at least three very different questions here: 1. Does the expansion of space affect bound systems? 2. Can we measure the curvature of spacetime locally in a laboratory on earth? 3. What is the smallest acceleration we can measure? The first is a duplicate of https://physics.stackexchange.com/q/2110/50583 and its linked questions. Please edit your question so that it asks a single question - or, since it has already received answers such an edit would likely invalidate, ask a new and more focused question. – ACuriousMind Jan 23 '21 at 12:07

3 Answers3

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The expansion of space doesn't affect the orbit of Saturn. And I don't think the smallest acceleration that can be measured is the right approach.

In Newtonian mechanics, the orbit of Mercury would be a perfect ellipse if nothing disturbed it. But there are other planets. The main disturbance is Jupiter. but all the planets contribute. The net result is that the orientation of the ellipse is predicted to rotate by $532.3035$ arc sec/century. One of the long standing mysteries of physics around 1900 was that the measured rate was $574.10$ are sec/century. When Einstein developed General Relativity, he was able to explain the missing $43$ arc sec/century as an effect of the curvature of spacetime. It was a triumph. See Tests of general relativity

$43$ arc sec/century is small, but measurable. Saturn is harder. Equation 1029 in this site makes it easy to calculate for Saturn. Here are a couple links of orbital parameters and periods. I get $0.014$ arc sec/century.

Another page from the same site shows how to calculate orbital perturbations from planets. For Saturn, the predicted precession is $18.36$ arc sec/year. The observed value is $19.50$. So it appears that the effect of curvature is at the edge of what can be measured. But it is swamped by uncertainties in bigger effects.


Curvature of spacetime, aka force of gravity, can be directly measured in the lab. As you said, it isn't hard to set up a torsion balance that can measure the attraction of $1$ kg masses. This was first done before $1800$ in the Cavendish experiment. The Eötvös experiment is a very precise version of the same idea.

The slowing of clocks in gravity and the gravitational redshift of light that travels upward can be measured. GPS would not work without corrections for General Relativity.

Two jets carrying precise clocks flew east and west around the world at high speed. Afterward the clocks disagreed by the amount predicted by General Relativity.

General Relativity matters for this kind of precise measurements. For every day work, Newtonian mechanics is good enough. It isn't a question of if spacetime is perfectly flat. It is if spacetime is flat enough not to notice. Typically when two $1$ kg spheres roll on a flat table, their gravitational attraction isn't noticeable.


The smallest acceleration I can think of that is relevant to curved spacetime is in LIGO. Gravitational waves are minute disturbances to spacetime. To measure them, LIGO has 4 km long cavities that must not vary in length more than a ten thousandth the diameter of a proton. LIGO is sensitive to waves at about $10$ - $100$ Hz. Given $d = \frac{1}{2}at^2$, $a$ must be less than $10^{-24} m/s^2$

mmesser314
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  • You are aware that the precession of Mercury still has about 2 arc seconds / century that can't be accounted for with GR, right? – Quark Soup Jan 22 '21 at 13:59
  • @GluonSoup - I wasn't aware that it was that big. What I said isn't the entire story. Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler mentions there is also about $5000$ arc sec/century because we are not measuring from an inertial frame. Backing it out can be done, but isn't easy. There are differences of opinion on how to do it. The oblateness of the Sun has a small quadrupole effect. – mmesser314 Jan 22 '21 at 14:33
  • As I've mentioned in the other answers, any experiment you perform on Earth is going to take place in curved spacetime. We know this. If your experiment shows you conclusively that spacetime is flat, then we know that experiment is wrong. Where are the experiments that remove the influence of Earth, the moon, the planets, the sun and the galactic core. Where are the experiments that are sensitive down to $10^{-11} m\space s^{-11}$? – Quark Soup Jan 22 '21 at 14:43
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This is a partial answer on the question whether

the orbit of Saturn is affected infinitesimally by the expansion of space and if we had an instrument sensitive enough, we could measure it.

Whether bound states expand with the expansion of the universe:

The answer is: obviously not all as there would be no way to observe/measure the expansion of the universe. In this paper a simple model is developed within present theories to gauge the extent to which bound states can be affected by the expansion of the universe.

The abstract:

As the separation between galaxies increases owing to the expansion of the universe, galaxies themselves and smaller bound structures do not grow. An accurate description of the dynamics of cosmic structures requires the full apparatus of general relativity. In order to gain a fairly satisfactory understanding of what does not expand in an expanding universe, however, it suffices to take the harmonic oscillator as prototype of a bound system. More precisely, we show that a study of the quantum dynamics of a nonrelativistic harmonic oscillator in an expanding universe makes it clear that most bound systems do not take part in the overall cosmic expansion. The analysis is elementary and indicates that whether a bound structure partakes in the expansion partially or not at all is essentially determined by a characteristic time scale associated with it.

italics mine

The conclusion:

Our model is so simple that it lends itself to a full and exact quantum treatment. This, in spite of the model’s crudeness, permits a clear analysis of to what extent a bound system grows influenced by the overall cosmic expansion. It turns out that the degree of expansion of a bound system appears to be fundamentally determined by a characteristic time scale associated with the system.Of course such a time scale is strongly correlated to the size of the bound structure, and our elementary model indicates that even galaxy clusters essentially do not grow in response to the general Hubble flow.

So this would solve the argument of Saturn in the negative.

anna v
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  • There is absolutely no local effect whatsoever from the expansion of the universe. Local accelerations come only from locally present matter, moving however it's locally moving. See this answer. I only glanced at the paper you cited, but it appears to make the same mistake as the paper by Cooperstock et al that I mentioned in that answer: it assumes the universe is filled with perfectly uniform critical-density matter at all scales. – benrg Jan 22 '21 at 06:50
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    @benrg do you have a link where your opinion is quantified the way the paper I quote tries to do? – anna v Jan 22 '21 at 07:04
  • Here are some notes by J.A. Peacock with similar content. It's not published, but he's a well known cosmologist if that helps. I need to collect a list of papers that get this right and wrong. Fundamentally, though, the error is very easy to understand, and you shouldn't need to count votes of experts to see who's right. The papers simply assume a matter distribution that is incorrect. – benrg Jan 22 '21 at 08:19
  • ...makes it clear that most bound systems do not take part in the overall cosmic expansion Please explain to me why you think this is significant. The acceleration between an electron and a proton separated by just $10^{-10}m$ is $10^{22} m\space s^{-2}$. The acceleration of expansion is on the order of $10^{-11} m\space s^{-2}$. Are you claiming to have a harmonic oscillator that can measure one part in $10^{33}$? – Quark Soup Jan 22 '21 at 12:59
  • This paper fails to answer my most pressing issue. We know this experiment takes place in curved space. If you measure no acceleration from the curvature of the Earth, the Sun and the moon and the galactic core, then we know your experiment is giving the wrong answer. Where are these influences factored into this harmonic oscillator experiment? – Quark Soup Jan 22 '21 at 13:34
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    @GluonSoup I think it shows that with a simple potential, as the harmonic oscillator any influence in the change in curvature due to changes in GR is too small to notice even for galaxy cluster distances . He extrapolates .to the newtonian attraction, which creates bound states with gravity My quoting this paper is a comment on that, that it can be seen that even for very simple systems the expansion is not measurable. – anna v Jan 22 '21 at 14:25
  • @annav - This is not an answer. I'd like to focus on the original question. We know this experiment you referenced takes place in curved space. If your oscillator measures no acceleration, then we know for a fact that your experiment is giving the wrong answer. If you do measure an acceleration, then how are these influences of the sun, moon, the planets and galaxy core filtered out of this harmonic oscillator experiment? If you can't answer this question, then you have no basis for your conclusion. – Quark Soup Jan 22 '21 at 18:16
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So what is the smallest acceleration we can product/measure in a lab experiment

I'll approach this question from theoretical perspective. Even at absolute zero temperature molecules does not stop moving - they have zero-point energy which is described by : $$ E_0 = \frac {\hbar \omega_0}{2} $$

,where $\omega_0$ is particle fluctuation angular frequency at $0~K$ temperature. Equating that to molecule kinetic energy : $$ \frac {mv^2}{2} = \frac {\hbar \omega_0}{2} $$

One can extract smallest possible molecule speed, which is : $$ v_{min} = \sqrt { \frac {\hbar\omega_0^~}{m} } $$

,Where $m$ is particle rest mass, of which object at hand is composed

Smallest possible acceleration can be expressed as : $$ a_{min} = \frac {v_{min}}{t_{max}} $$

Substituting minimum speed, due to zero-point energy and acknowledging, that no time span can be greater then universe age, gives :

$$ a_{min} = \tau_{u}^{-1}~\sqrt { \frac {\hbar\omega_0^~}{m} }$$

Where $\tau_{u}$ is universe age.