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Suppose, I have a cylinder filled with ideal gas molecules, and a piston is fitted at the top of the cylinder so that work can be done on and by the system. Now, if I do work on the system, isn't it the same as adding heat to the system?

Why then, does the formula only consider heat when calculating entropy?

$$dS=\frac{dQ}{T}$$

Can we not replace $dQ$ with $dW$, where $dW$ is the infinitesimal work done on the system?

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    This is the definition of Entropy. And I guess we can use the first law of thermodynamics to find the dependence on work done. – Discord Warrior Aug 13 '21 at 06:15
  • Does this answer your question?: What is entropy really? – Discord Warrior Aug 13 '21 at 06:19
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    The equation for entropy applies only to a reversible path between the two end thermodynamic states. For such a path, you can replace dQ by dW only if the internal energy along the path does not change. – Chet Miller Aug 13 '21 at 12:41
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    @ChetMiller Sounds like (good) answer to me, instead of a comment. – Bob D Aug 16 '21 at 13:19
  • @ChetMiller Isn't entropy a state function? If so, why are we concerned with whether the path between the two states is reversible or whether the path is non-existent, due to the process being irreversible? – tryingtobeastoic Aug 17 '21 at 13:52
  • Yes, entropy is a state function. I don't understand the rest of your question. If you are asking whether the entropy change between two thermodynamic equilibrium states of a system is the same for all reversible and irreversible paths between these same two end states, then the answer is yes. – Chet Miller Aug 17 '21 at 14:06
  • @ChetMiller You said," The equation for entropy applies only to a reversible path between the two end thermodynamic states." What I was trying to ask was, shouldn't the equation for entropy apply to reversible paths along with irreversible paths (an oxymoron because the path doesn't exist)? – tryingtobeastoic Aug 17 '21 at 14:10
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    For an irreversible path between two end states, the only way to get the entropy change is to devise (dream up) an alternate reversible path between the same two end states, and evaluate the integral using dq and T for that reversible path (which will differ from dq and T for the irreversible path). – Chet Miller Aug 17 '21 at 14:20
  • @ChetMiller I have drafted an answer to this, but you are so much more qualified to do so. Why not? – Bob D Nov 05 '21 at 22:14
  • @BobD I really don't know how to answer this. We know that entropy transfer only occurs by heat flow at the boundary, and entropy generation occurs by finite gradients is velocity and temperature within the system. This was originally determined empirically by Clausius, and we have later shown this by manipulation of the differential energy balance within the system, but the latter seems a little too advanced for this OP. So, if you've drafted an answer, go for it. – Chet Miller Nov 06 '21 at 00:30
  • @ChetMiller OK, will do. Please feel free to critique it. – Bob D Nov 06 '21 at 19:04

2 Answers2

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Does entropy change when work in done on the system?

Total entropy change equals entropy transferred plus entropy generated. Only heat transfers entropy. Reversible work itself does not transfer entropy. It is only the heat that may result from reversible work that transfers entropy. On the other hand, irreversible work does change (increase) entropy due to entropy generation.

Now, if I do work on the system, isn't it the same as adding heat to the system?

It's the same only insofar as a differential change in internal energy $dU$ is concerned since they are related to the change by the first law

$$dU=\delta Q-\delta W$$

For example, if you did 10 J of compression work on the system but added no heat, or added 10 J of heat to the system but did no work, the change in internal energy would be the same, +10 J. After the change has occurred there is no way to know whether it was caused by heat or work. So in terms of the first law (conservation of energy) heat can be considered equivalent to work.

But work done on the system is not the same as adding heat to the system insofar as a change in entropy is concerned. If the 10 J of compression work was a reversible adiabatic process, then $\Delta S_{sys}=0$ because $Q=0$. If the 10 J of heat added was a reversible isochoric (constant volume) heat addition where $W=0$, then $\Delta S=mC_{v}\ln\frac{T_2}{T_1}$.

Why then, does the formula only consider heat when calculating entropy?

$$dS=\frac{dQ}{T}$$

The equation

$$dS=\frac{\delta Q_{rev}}{T}$$

defines a differential change in entropy of a system for a reversible path, as in the reversible isochoric heat addition and reversible adiabatic compression examples above. Although the equation is for a reversible path, it is used to calculate the change in entropy for an irreversible path between the two equilibrium states since entropy is a state property independent of the path. However, for an irreversible path, you need to devise any convenient reversible path that satisfies the initial and final states per the first law.

For example, an irreversible adiabatic process generates entropy although there is no heat transfer. To determine the entropy increase you would devise any convenient reversible path connecting the initial and final states and apply the entropy equation to it. You would find that part of that path will require reversible heat transfer.

@Chet Miller has developed a helpful step by step approach to determine the change in entropy of a system. You can find it here:

https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/grandpa-chets-entropy-recipe/

Can we not replace $dQ$ with $dW$, where $dW$ is the infinitesimal work done on the system?

In the case of a reversible isothermal process involving an ideal gas, since $dU=0$, then $\delta Q=\delta W$, meaning the magnitude of energy transfer to/from the system in the form of reversible heat equals the magnitude of energy transfer from/to the system in the form of reversible work. But the fact the values are the same does not mean heat and work are equivalent with respect to entropy change as already stated above. It is reversible heat that transfers entropy, not reversible work. For that reason I would be hesitant to substitute $\delta W$ for $\delta Q$ in the entropy equation as it may imply that heat and work are equivalent with respect to entropy change.

Hope this helps.

Bob D
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Work and heat are different concepts.

Work is a quantity which stems from a change in your system. Heat is a quantity that stems from a change in energy coming from your environment i.e. outside your system.

Now consider the 1st law of thermodynamics $$dE = \delta W + \delta Q$$ this is a phenomenological axiom which expresses the two different ways you can change the energy in your system when going from one equilibrium state to another. It is in this sense that heat and entropy are the same as you mention, they both change the energy but they are functionally different. The 1st law is also an exact differential, allowing us to express changes in energy.

Sticking to your example of a piston, we can begin to try and attain expressions for the inexact differentials in the expression above. Starting $\delta W$ this is obviously $$W = - \int^{v_1}_{v_0}P dV$$ from observation. Giving us a path depentent way to evaluate work when moves from one equilibrium state to another in a state space (in this case some PV diagram).

For $\delta Q$ understanding how to attain an expression for this inexact differential is more challenging. We must define the notion of Carnot cycle (which predates the first law) and says that a maximally efficient transfer of heat occurs between two reservoirs when the following relationship is manifest $$\frac{Q_1}{Q_2} = \frac{T_1}{T_2}$$ where $Q_i$ is the heat transferred from the $i$-th reservoir at temperatuvre $T_i$ through a Carnot cycle. From here we may postulate that any heat transfer may be decomposed into infinitessimal Carnot cycles giving $$\frac{dQ_1}{T_1} = \frac{dQ_2}{T_2}.$$ For a reversible process we have $$\oint \frac{dQ}{T_R} = 0$$ but if the process is irreversible we have $$\oint \frac{dQ}{T_R} \leq 0$$ which is known as Clausius' Inequality. If one then quantifies this measure which takes us away from the optimal reversibility of a Carnot cycle and calls it entropy one has $$ \Delta S_{A \rightarrow B} \geq \int^{B}_{A} \frac{dQ}{T}$$ or $dQ = TdS$ as you state for cyclic, reversible processes.

And so, $\delta W$ and $\delta Q$ cannot be interchanged because they refer to different quantities that describe different phenomena. And as such are expressed in and originate from different concepts. One from phenomenology, the other from the Carnot cycle.

Jake Xuereb
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