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If we accept that quantum mechanics is a good theory for describing microscopic systems (for, there is plenty of evidence that suggests quantum mechanics is a good theory), then the property of non-commuting operators results in a general uncertainty principle of which the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a special case. And that is fundamental to the theory. Non-commuting quantities happily account for things like the two-slits experiment and the Uncertainty Principle pops out of the theory as natural consequence.

However, is the claim "Uncertainty Principle is NOT a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique" merely a conjecture which is well supported by fact that nowadays quantum mechanics is probably the most successful theory in physics?

Pavel Borisov
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  • I don't understand: You can't prove a theory - but you can falsify it. Until now (at least AFAIK), the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (HUP) was not ruled out experimentally and even more, the predictions of quantum mechanics were found in experiments (of course, to some degree of precision). So the 'evidence' would be that quantum mechanics predicts, even for 'perfect' measurements, the HUP and QM itself is a well-tested theory. But again: This does not prove that quantum mechanics (and especially the HUP) is 'correct', whatever this means. – Tobias Fünke Jul 22 '22 at 07:17
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    Haven't you answered your own question? The HUP could only be a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique if QM is wrong, and as you say we have yet to prove it wrong. – John Rennie Jul 22 '22 at 07:21
  • Jason Funderberker, your comment does not even touch the question: how do we know the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique? What is the evidence for that? Or it is merely a (well-argued) conjecture? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 07:44
  • John Rennie, QM stands on the HUP, not on the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique". – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 07:49
  • QM is a theory that predicts the HUP, which by no means is related to some experimental error or precision. Whether this is a 'true' statement (or QM is a 'correct' theory) is another thing. – Tobias Fünke Jul 22 '22 at 07:51
  • Jason Funderberker, we are getting closer and closer to the question. So, please, let me repeat it: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? Is that merely a conjecture (supported by the fact that qm is the most successful theory in physics nowadays)? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 07:56
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    "QM stands on the HUP," this is wrong. The HUP was posited as a prnciple before the theory of QM. Now it is derivable theoretically from the theory, it is no longer really a principle, i,e, an axiomatic postulate of QM. See the postulates on which QM stands. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/qm.html . It is on the wavefunction postulate that QM stands. – anna v Jul 22 '22 at 07:57
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    I very well understand your question, so again: The HUP is a consequence of quantum mechanics, a theory which a priori does not say anything about measurement precision. End of the story. – Tobias Fünke Jul 22 '22 at 07:57
  • Jason Funderbarker, the question is not about what qm says a priori. The question is: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 07:59
  • @PavelBorisov see my answer here for links and details https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/229168/can-the-heisenberg-uncertainty-principle-be-explained-intuitively/229180#229180 – anna v Jul 22 '22 at 08:01
  • anna v, as it was mentioned: the property of non-commuting operators results in a general uncertainty principle of which the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a special case. However, the question is: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:01
  • @PavelBorisov did you reas my link? here is maybe a more relevant one https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/705980/why-do-we-keep-referring-to-the-heisenberg-uncertainty-principle-in-situations-t/705988#705988 – anna v Jul 22 '22 at 08:17

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As you wrote, the uncertainty relations (UR) are a direct consequence of the theory. They can be proved just by evaluating the expected dispersion around the average of the observable values of two non-commuting observables.

Theoretical expectation values and then variances do not contain information about possible experimental uncertainty. They are exact mathematical consequences of the theory. When QM axioms say that the possible outcome of a measurement of an observable $A$ belongs to the spectrum of the corresponding operator on a Hilbert space, this should be intended as an exact statement (without reference to any inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique).

Treatment of the consequences of limited-precision experiments is a separate story. It is not different from the situation in classical Physics, where we have as well exact formal results, and the analysis of measurement limitations is a kind of post-processing of the theory.

  • Again, the question is: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? Is that merely a conjecture (supported by the fact that qm is the most successful theory in physics nowadays)? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 07:52
  • I thought I wrote clearly. The way one derives the UR from the principles of the theory does not contain any reference to inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique. What else? Even more, the whole analysis arriving at the UR implicitly assumes that every measurement can be performed with arbitrary precision. – GiorgioP-DoomsdayClockIsAt-90 Jul 22 '22 at 10:22
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That quantum uncertainty is not the same as classical uncertainty (characterizing an,y measurement device) as can be shown in an interference experiment (two-slit experiment is a model one, but there are real-world experiments based on it). While the classical uncertainty is fully characterized by a probability distribution, $p(x)$, the quantum uncertainty is characterized by probability amplitude: $\psi(x)$, so that the corresponding probability is $p(x)=|\psi(x)|^2$.

E.g., in the two slit experiment, the classical uncertainty from the electrons passing through the two slits would result in the addition of probabilities: $$p(x)=p(x|1)p_1 + p(x|2)p_2,$$ where $p_j$ is the probability to pass through slit $j$, whereas $p(x|j)$ is the uncertainty of electrons passing through slit $j$. The two are uncorrelated.

In quantum case the probability distribution on screen is $$ p(x)=|a_1\psi_1(x)+a_2\psi_2(x)|^2=|a_1\psi_1(x)|^2+|a_2\psi_2(x)|^2+2\Re\left[a_1a_2^*\psi_1(x)\psi_2^*(x)\right]= p(x|1)p_1+p(x|2)p_2+2\Re\left[a_1a_2^*\psi_1(x)\psi_2^*(x)\right], $$ where $p_j$|a_j|^2$, $p(x|j)=|\psi_j(x)|^2$.

Thus, quantum and classical treatment produce different results, which can be tested experimentally.

Roger V.
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  • Quantum uncertainty IS different from classical uncertainty. No doubt. However, how is that an evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:17
  • @PavelBorisov I think you need to state which parts of QM you accept and which you don't. Once we accept the structure of QM, the HUP follows from it and imposes limit on simultaneous measurement of two uncertainties. Are you specifically interested in experiments that tested that the error in simultaneous measurement of two quantities never beats the HUP? Perhaps relevant: https://physics.stackexchange.com/a/631043/247642 – Roger V. Jul 22 '22 at 08:34
  • I already mentioned in the original post: "If we accept that quantum mechanics is a good theory for describing microscopic systems (for, there is plenty of evidence that suggests quantum mechanics is a good theory), then the property of non-commuting operators results in a general uncertainty principle of which the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a special case." However, the core of the question remains untouched: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? Is that merely a (well-argued) conjecture? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:49
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    @PavelBorisov This is contradictory: if you accept QM, then HUP is just its consequence. If HUP is incorrect, then QM is not correct. – Roger V. Jul 22 '22 at 08:52
  • Nobody claims that the HUP is wrong. The question goes like that: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? Is that merely a (well-argued) conjecture? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:55
  • @PavelBorisov sorry, but I do not understand: you say that HUP is correct, but then you suggest that it is not, as the errors might be explained by those of measurement instruments. (Remark: there are both errors in measurement: due to HUP and due to the instruments.) – Roger V. Jul 22 '22 at 09:55
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The uncertainty principle is nothing but a mathematical conclusion. This conclusion emerges from the physical hypothesis of Hilbert space and operators on it.

A system is fully described by a vector in Hilebert space, where the Schwartz inequality can be applied. Variables are represented by hermitian operators, namely q-number, leading to non-trival commutation relations.

No measurement is taken in this procedure, so the uncertainty principle has nothing to do with measurements. Nevertheless uncertainty does exist during a measurement, often results of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique, which can be reduced by improving device porformance or experimental techniques. The total uncertaity is combination of these two parts.

That' why uncertainty due to the uncertianty principle is called the quantum limit.

Luessiaw
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  • Sure, no measurement is taken in the mathematical derivation of the HUP. However, that fact is not an evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique". Of course, neither it is an evidence for the claim "the HUP IS a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique". – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:32
  • @PavelBorisov I don't understand what do you mean by asking for an "evidence". I think the proof of HUP is enough evience , based on the fundamental hypotheses of the QM, not experimental analysis. If HUP is not true, so is the QM. – Luessiaw Jul 22 '22 at 08:46
  • The HUP IS "true" (to follow your wording). The question is: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? Is that merely a (well-argued) conjecture? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:52
  • @PavelBorisov Yes, it's a conjecture, but not a direct one. Strickty speaking, it's a conclusion from the conjectures of QM. We don't need inadequacies of instruments to prove HUP. But is there any way to derive the same HUP from these inadequacies? Maybe there is, but I think more hypotheses and experimental evidence are required. And at end, you'll get some mechanics quite different from QM. Fortunately no evidence is given yet. – Luessiaw Jul 22 '22 at 09:04
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Quantum mechanics is an extremely well-validated theory that has withstood all attempts to explain it away with reference to limitations in measurements/experimental technique.

If you are for some reason fundamentally opposed to believing this then you unlikely to be convinced otherwise by a post in this forum. It takes some years of study to internalise the intuition that the classical picture is wrong. I will try to point you in the correct direction.

One of the postulates of quantum mechanics is that observables correspond to mathematical operators, and that the possible measured values of these observables correspond to the operators spectrum.

In that context the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is just one of many uncertainty relations that occur. There is in fact an uncertainty principle for each pair of non-commuting observables. In that sense there is nothing 'special' about the the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It does however present an obvious challenge to our classical intuition , and is often presented first for historical and pedagogical reasons.

The important point is that the various uncertainty principles follow inevitably if we accept that observables are represented by (potentially non-commuting) operators.

If you are happy to settle for experimental evidence for the fundamental truth of a different uncertainty relation (for spin components), I suggest you read about the sequential Stern-Gerlach experiment. This is explained well in the first chapter of Sakurai's 'Modern Quantum Mechanics'. It provides, in a conceptually clear way, strong evidence that we simply cannot, even in principle simultaneously measure the different spin components of a particle.

To quote Sakurai:

It is to be clearly understood that the limitation we have encountered in determining $S_z$ and $S_x$ is not due to the incompetence of the experimentalist. By improving the experimental techniques we cannot make the $S_z$ - component out of the third apparatus ... disappear. The peculiarities of quantum mechanics is imposed upon us by the experiment itself [emphasis added].

It is important to understood that the mathematical theory was created to make sense of these kinds of experiments - someone didn't arbitrarily decide to represent observables by operators because they felt like it, it was necessary to make sense of the experimental data.

Martin C.
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  • We already mentioned several times that qm is probably the most successful theory in physics so far (see my original post). The question is: what is the evidence for the claim "the HUP is not a result of inadequacies in the measuring instruments/technique"? Is that merely a (well-argued) conjecture? – Pavel Borisov Jul 22 '22 at 08:58
  • Did you even read my answer? – Martin C. Jul 22 '22 at 09:15