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If we have a truck filled with sand moving at a velocity "v", and the truck is leaking sand vertically downwards at a rate of $\frac{dm}{dt}$, if we ignore friction and air resistance, why is it that the truck will be moving at a constant velocity?

It makes sense if we consider the sand-filled-truck and the sand of mass △m that is falling out as one system. If we do so, the total mass in the system we defined is constant. Since the sand that falls out will have the same horizontal velocity of "V", so change in momentum of the system we defined is zero. Hence $\frac{dp}{dt} = 0$ and so no net force acts on the system.

While this explanation makes sense, I am not sure what is wrong with the following explanation:

If we calculate the momentum of only the sand-filled-truck at two instances in time, the momentum will definitely be smaller over time since the mass of the truck is decreasing. So how is it that $\frac{dp}{dt} = 0?$

Also, if we define our system to be only the sand-filled truck and not include the mass of sand that leaks out, the equation will for this system will be modelled by this differential equation $\frac{dp}{dt} = m\frac{dv}{dt} + v\frac{dm}{dt}$, and since mass is being loss from the truck, $\frac{dm}{dt}$ is negative, and so shouldn't there be a net external force acting on the truck?

The two explanations seem to contradict. Hope someone can help me, I have been stuck with this for days.

Edit: After seeing the comments, the more fundemental question is why can't we use $F = m\frac{dv}{dt} + v\frac{dm}{dt}$ for a system of variable mass? Isn't that what the $\frac{dm}{dt}$ term is for?

Thanks in advance!

john
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    But the momentum of the truck is changing with time. Is your question how the momentum can be changing when no external force is acting? – John Rennie Jul 29 '22 at 06:41
  • @John Rennie Is that possible? With no external force won't momentum be conserved? – john Jul 29 '22 at 06:47
  • Suppose I have a $1$ kg object moving at some speed $v$ and I treat the object as being made up from two parts $m_a$ and $m_b$ where $m_a + m_b = 1$. But I make the dividing line between the two parts change with time so $m_a$ and $m_b$ change with time. Then the momenta of the two parts will be changing with time, but of course the total momentum won't. The apparent change in the momenta $m_av$ and $m_bv$ is just a consequence of me changing where I'm dividing up my object. And that's what is happening here. – John Rennie Jul 29 '22 at 06:52
  • Your problem is a bit "ill defined". If you ignore friction and air resistance, then you don't need a force at all to push truck forward, it will go in itself due to inertia. And it doesn't matter that truck looses mass in this process, similarly if you cut by one wagon of a moving train going fleely without a driver - all parts of train will be going with same speed $v$, even longest part of train, because there's no any single reason why "longer" train part should automatically speed-up when it's mass decreases. It's different situation when train pushed by engine for overcoming resistance. – Agnius Vasiliauskas Jul 29 '22 at 06:57
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    I have voted to reopen this question because I don't believe it is simply a homework and exercise or check my work question. It reveals the importance of not only requiring no net external force on a system for conservation of momentum, but also more broadly, requires the system be isolated, i.e., no exchange of mass with the surroundings as well. Conservation of mass is assumed when one only considers the net external force on a system. – Bob D Jul 29 '22 at 16:04

4 Answers4

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I believe the source of your confusion is a full understanding of the requirements for conservation of momentum.

Normally we say that system momentum is conserved if there are no net external forces acting on the system. Implicit in this description is the assumption that the mass of the system is constant. But the more general requirement for conservation of momentum in a system is that the system be isolated. An isolated system exchanges neither mass nor energy with its surroundings. In that respect the truck and its contents is not an isolated system since it loses mass to its surroundings, meaning $\frac{dm}{dt}\lt 0$ and since $\frac{dv}{dt}=0$, $\frac{dp}{dt}\lt0$.

if we ignore friction and air resistance, why is it that the truck will be moving at a constant velocity?

Because, per Newton's 2nd law, a change in horizontal velocity (acceleration/deceleration) requires a net horizontal force acting on the truck and its contents. Neglecting air resistance and friction there is no net force acting on the truck plus its contents. Since $v$ is constant and mass is decreasing, the momentum of the truck plus its contents is decreasing.

It makes sense if we consider the sand-filled-truck and the sand of mass △m that is falling out as one system

Yes, if we include the sand falling out of the truck as the system, there is no change in the horizontal momentum of the truck plus total sand. But there is a change in vertical momentum (discussed at the end).

If we calculate the momentum of only the sand-filled-truck at two instances in time, the momentum will definitely be smaller over time since the mass of the truck is decreasing. So how is it that $\frac{dp}{dt} = 0?$

Yes the momentum will be less and for that reason $\frac{dp}{dt}\lt0$ not $\frac{dp}{dt}=0$ . It is decreasing because although the velocity is constant the mass is decreasing.

Also, if we define our system to be only the sand-filled truck and not include the mass of sand that leaks out, the equation will for this system will be modelled by this differential equation $\frac{dp}{dt} = > m\frac{dv}{dt} + v\frac{dm}{dt}$, and since mass is being loss from the truck, $\frac{dm}{dt}$ is negative, and so shouldn't there be a net external force acting on the truck?

As stated in the beginning of this answer, while it is necessary that the the net external force on a system be zero for conservation of momentum, it it is not sufficient. The mass of the system must also be constant.

Even if we consider the truck, its contents, and the leaking sand together as the system, total momentum is still not conserved. Before the sand starts leaking, there is no vertical momentum in the system. Once leaking starts, there is an increase in vertical momentum. Vertical momentum is therefore not conserved.

In order for vertical momentum to be conserved we need to include the Earth in the system. Per Newton's third law the sand and Earth exert an equal and opposite force on one another. The sand "pulls up" on the earth giving the earth momentum equal and opposite to the sand. The mass of the Earth being so much more than the sand, its upward velocity is too small to observe.

Finally there is the issue of what happens when the sand impacts the ground and stops moving forward. Once again, if we include the Earth in our system momentum will be conserved. In this case angular momentum is conserved. Before colliding with the Earth each particle of sand has angular momentum about the center of the Earth equal to the cross product of its linear momentum and the position vector of the particle measured from the center of the earth (assumes the Earth is a sphere of uniform density and both the particle and Earth are rigid bodies). When it impacts the ground it angular momentum is transferred to the earth in order that angular momentum is conserved.

Hope this helps.

Bob D
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  • Will the sand stop moving upon impact with the ground? If we ignore friction, there wouldn't be a force to stop the sand right? – john Jul 30 '22 at 02:05
  • also, you mentioned dp/dt is < 0 Because the mass is decreasing. So doesn't this mean there will be a net external force in the horizontal direction which results in a change in velocity? – john Jul 30 '22 at 02:06
  • Regarding your first question, the Earth stops the forward movement of the sand giving the Earth an increase in angular momentum. Regarding the second question, i already told you there is no change in velocity because there is no net horizontal force. The reason for the decrease in momentum is not due to a net external force, but due to a decrease in mass. Re read my complete answer. – Bob D Jul 30 '22 at 02:17
  • But isn't F = dp/dt? So wouldn't a change in momentum necessitate an external force? – john Jul 30 '22 at 02:52
  • @john A net force results in a change in momentum but a change in momentum doesn’t require a net force if the change is due to a change in mass instead of a change in velocity. That’s the whole point here. – Bob D Jul 30 '22 at 10:00
  • In other words, F=dp/dt assumes the mass is constant – Bob D Jul 30 '22 at 10:25
  • Take a look at this post: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/720682/why-does-force-cause-a-change-in-acceleration-rather-than-a-change-in-mass – Bob D Jul 30 '22 at 10:29
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What you have not defined is a system of constant mass which in this case would be the truck, the sand inside the truck and the sand which has fallen out of the truck.
The momentum of that system does not change and hence no external forces act on the system.

If we calculate the momentum of only the sand-filled-truck at two instances in time, the momentum will definitely be smaller over time since the mass of the truck is decreasing. So how is it that $dp/dt=0$?
You are not considering a system of fixed mass so that you cannot use Newton's second law, $\vec F_{\rm external}= \dfrac {d\vec p}{dt}$.

The equation that you have mentioned, $\frac{dp}{dt} = m\frac{dv}{dt} + v\frac{dm}{dt}$, is not valid for such a system as explained in the answers to the post Second law of Newton for variable mass systems.

This chapter on continuous mass transfer might be worth reading?

Farcher
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  • “The momentum of that system does not change and hence no external forces act on the system.”isn’t the ground an external force that alters the horizontal momentum of the falling sand? – Bob D Jul 29 '22 at 08:15
  • @BobD I think that in this sort of problem it is the horizontal motion (truck moving at constant velocity) which is being considered? So the final fate of the falling sand in the vertical direction is not considered. – Farcher Jul 29 '22 at 08:47
  • You defined the leaking sand as part of the system that is moving horizontally. As such the horizontal momentum of the falling sand is lost when it impacts the ground. But that’s okay, no need to respond further – Bob D Jul 29 '22 at 09:57
  • Why is the equation not valid for a variable mass system? Isn't the equation taking into account the varying mass by the term "dm/dt"? – john Jul 29 '22 at 09:58
  • On the other hand I suppose if we ignore the ultimate fate of the sand outside the truck we can say momentum is conserved – Bob D Jul 29 '22 at 10:03
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If we calculate the momentum of only the sand-filled-truck at two instances in time, the momentum will definitely be smaller over time since the mass of the truck is decreasing. So how is it that dp/dt=0?

The momentum of the truck will decrease, yes, but the momentum of the sand that's not in the truck increases. The total momentum of the system, $p=p_\mathrm{truck} + p_\mathrm{sand}$ is what is zero (we ignore gravity), which implies that $p_\mathrm{truck} = -p_\mathrm{sand}$.

You can also consider a thought experiment to approach this -- if you have a flying object and cut it in half mid-flight, if no forces accelerate each half, why would their speeds change? The same can be argued here.

Also, if we define our system to be only the sand-filled truck and not include the mass of sand that leaks out, the equation will for this system will be modelled by this differential equation dp/dt=m dv/dt+v dm/dt, and since mass is being loss from the truck, dmdt is negative, and so shouldn't there be a net external force acting on the truck?

You ought to be careful here -- although it is true that the truck loses momentum (in the form of mass), you cannot apply the $F = v \dfrac{dm}{dt} + m\dfrac{dv}{dt}$ equation here.

So no, a force is not necessarily applied on the truck. With this approach, all you're really doing is deciding to first consider the truck and sand as your system with some momentum $p_1$, and then a few seconds later are defining your system to be that truck but with less sand in it, so naturally it will have momentum $p_2<p_1$. Of course, this should come as no surprise, since the "remaining" momentum is in the other part of the system (leaked sand) that you stopped considering as part of the truck momentum.

user256872
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  • What is an example of variable mass transfer within the system? If there is variable mass transfer within the system won't dm/dt always be zero? – john Jul 29 '22 at 09:59
  • How is a (heavily) leaking moving sand truck different from a rocket while ejecting its gas mass? $ F= m \frac{dv}{dt}+v \frac{dm}{dt}. $ – Narasimham Jul 29 '22 at 19:34
  • @john yes. for variable mass, you must use different equations. so there never is a $dm/dt$ term – user256872 Jul 29 '22 at 19:41
  • @Narasimham that equation does not apply to rocket propulsion. An easy way to see it is that because of the velocity term in the equation, the calculated "force" $F$ is not Galilean-invariant (i.e. this calculated value of $F$ depends on the inertial frame of reference, so clearly something is off here). – user256872 Jul 29 '22 at 19:43
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lets look at the equations

momentum at time t

$$p_t=(\Delta m_s+m_T(t))\,v$$

and at $~t+\Delta t$

$$p_{t+\Delta t}=(\Delta m_s+m_T(t))\,(v+\Delta v)$$

where $$m_T(t)=M_T+M_s+\underbrace{\frac{d M_s(t)}{dt}}_{\text{constant}}\,t$$

now the force $~F~$ is

$$F=\lim_{\Delta t\mapsto 0}=\frac{\Delta p}{\Delta t}$$

neglecting $~\Delta m_s\,\Delta v~$ you obtain

$$F=m_T(t)\frac{dv}{dt}\overset{!}{=}0\quad\text{your case}\quad\Rightarrow\\ \frac{dv}{dt}=0\quad ,v=\text{constant}$$

  • $~T~$ for truck
  • $~s~$ for sand
Eli
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