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Suppose an internal combustion engine burns the same amount of fuel every cycle (regardless of engine or car speed ) that means it creates the same pressure every cycle and the force on the piston due to gas pressure is $\Delta P\cdot A$ (let's assume this process is isobaric and the whole fuel mixture ignites simultaneously for sake of simplicity). how is force the same according to the previous equation while the P=FV equation says otherwise?

this implies that the car accelerates at a constant rate and power keeps increasing but that doesn't happen in real life that's why we use forced induction or just increase the amount of burnt fuel to increase power, also cars on dynos reach max power at a certain rpm so it doesn't look like a thing due to air resistance.

Am I missing something?

Note: I'm not talking about internal combustion engines specifically I just found it to be the best example to demonstrate my reasoning and know that I said force and velocitybut changing to their rotatinal counterparts won't change anything about the physical rules or affect the reasoning.

Qmechanic
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  • "let's assume this process is isobaric and the whole fuel mixture ignites simultaneously for sake of simplicity". The isobaric process assumption neither fits the real nor ideal (reversible Otto cycle) IC engiine. – Bob D Sep 11 '23 at 19:01
  • @BobD yes I know and I shouldn't have made that assumption but really does that change the pressure difference and hence the force the gases exert on the cylinder during their expansion considering the same amount of fuel is burnt. Also as I said I am not talking about engines specifically I am just questioning the P=FV formula so engines appeared to be the best example for this – John greg Sep 11 '23 at 19:26
  • I don't know; but, please do warn me if anything remotely like this will happen near me, cause I'm outta there well before that blow-cycle-stage arrives! – heallan Sep 11 '23 at 22:51
  • @heallan wow bro you can't be that funny – John greg Sep 12 '23 at 07:54
  • P=F*v so F decreases if v increases. – trula Sep 13 '23 at 16:20

2 Answers2

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Engines don't create force (or torque) all by themselves. There must be a load against it. Just like you can push several pounds of force against a wall, but you cannot develop pounds of force in the air.

As the velocity increases, the ability of the road to be an effective load decreases (in the absence of air resistance, which this question seems to be assuming).

Imagine standing next to a playground merry-go-round. It's pretty hefty, so it takes a lot of force to accelerate much. Initially you have no difficulty suppling a large force. But as you push, it gets up to speed and spins quite quickly. You'll find you can no longer supply much force at all to the equipment since it is moving so fast.

The same thing happens between the car and the road. If you are in a low gear, the engine is turning very rapidly and the gas expansion in the cylinder is not producing the same pressure (because the volume of the cylinder is larger at the same point in the cycle). Or you can shift into a high gear, but now the leverage of the transmission means that your forces (torques) created on the ground are lower.

BowlOfRed
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  • Thanks. Could you have a look at this question https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/341796/infinite-power-from-constant-force?rq=1 because I am not convinced with the answers. – John greg Sep 13 '23 at 21:33
  • Forces from rockets are different (mainly because it is very easy to ignore what is happening with the reaction mass).

    Rockets have a limited amount of fuel and much of the work done by burning the fuel is to accelerate an exhaust, not to accelerate the vehicle. In contrast a vehicle on the earth can use the large reaction mass of the earth to put almost 100% of its energy into accelerating the vehicle. You may note that one of the answers on that question is from me already.

    – BowlOfRed Sep 13 '23 at 21:36
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how is force the same according to the previous equation while the P=FV equation says otherwise?

You need to be careful about just throwing equations around. You are confusing two completely separate velocities. One is the velocity of the piston inside the engine, and the other is the velocity of the vehicle on the road.

Focusing momentarily on the velocity of the piston. The faster that the piston expands the less pressure is exerted on the piston. So it is not correct that $\Delta P \cdot A$ is constant when varying piston speed. Also $\Delta P \cdot A$ is not power, it is energy. This is energy per cycle, so as the cycles go faster the power will increase even with constant energy. This is what makes the engine have a peak power RPM. At lower RPM you are producing fewer cycles at a given energy, and at higher RPM you are producing less energy per cycle.

Now, focusing on the velocity of the vehicle. Suppose that we have an ideal continuously variable transmission so that the engine can run at one fixed optimal power. The transmission will be continually varying the gearing ratio between the engine and the road. As it changes the gearing ratio that will reduce the force at the road. So you will get reduced $F$ at the wheel as $V$ increases in order to maintain a constant $P$.

Dale
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  • What I meant with P=FV formula is if every power stroke a constant amount of fuel is burnt that means power is constant which means force would decrease as the car accelerates(same gear ratio) but this formula $\Delta P \cdot A$ says that force is just due to pressure difference times area and if every power stroke the pressure created from combustion is same why would force decrease. Also a similar question idea https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/341796/infinite-power-from-constant-force?rq=1 – John greg Sep 13 '23 at 20:27
  • But now you say that pressure would be lower at same point at higher cylinder velocities, why? – John greg Sep 13 '23 at 20:28
  • @Johngreg The fuel is exploding at a particular speed each time. But at higher piston speeds/engine RPM, the volume in the cylinder is larger at any specific time after ignition. – BowlOfRed Sep 13 '23 at 21:40
  • @Johngreg said “if every power stroke a constant amount of fuel is burnt that means power is constant”. That is simply not true, as I explained in the answer. – Dale Sep 13 '23 at 23:02