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I used to believe that the wavefunction collapse came from the interaction of the system we want to measure {S} with the measurement apparatus {M} : {S} undergoing a non unitary transformation, but {S+M} undergoing a perfectly unitary transformation, given by the Schrödinger equation but with too many degrees of freedom to be calculated.

In that picture there is no unitarity problem for the measurement since the whole system undergoes a unitary transformation.

But that picture must be wrong in some way: let's say we want to measure a spin along $z$, and that the initial state of the measurement apparatus is $ \langle I |_{M} $ : we must find a unitary transformation $U$ for {S+M} such that :

-Spin eigenstates remain unchanged under $U$ (up to a phase): $$ \langle \uparrow |_{S} \langle I |_{M} \xrightarrow{U} \langle \uparrow |_{S} \langle F_{1} |_{M}$$ $$ \langle \downarrow |_{S} \langle I |_{M} \xrightarrow{U} \langle \downarrow |_{S} \langle F_{2} |_{M}$$

($\langle F_{i}|$ being any measurement apparatus final state)

-A superposition can be projected, on $\langle \uparrow |$ or $\langle \downarrow |$ depending on $\langle I |$ and/or $U$: $$ \frac{1}{\sqrt2}(\langle \uparrow |_{S}+\langle \downarrow |_{S}) \langle I |_{M} \xrightarrow{U} \langle \uparrow |_{S} \langle F_{3} |_{M}$$

But this is not possible : $$ (\langle \uparrow |+\langle \downarrow |) \langle I | = \langle \uparrow |\langle I |+\langle \downarrow | \langle I | \xrightarrow{U} \langle \uparrow | \langle F_{1} | + \langle \downarrow | \langle F_{2} |$$

$$ \langle \uparrow | \langle F_{1} | + \langle \downarrow | \langle F_{2} | = \langle \uparrow | \langle F_{3} |$$

except if $\langle \downarrow | \langle F_{2} |=0$, which can't be since $U$ is unitary.

Does it mean that we expect the measurement apparatus initial state to be correlated to the measured system initial state, or even {S+M} to be in an initial non factorizable state ? In any measurement experiment this is true since we prepare the system in some KNOWN state. I cannot find any other explanation (maybe many world interpretation).

Qmechanic
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agemO
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    Why do you write everything as a bra instead of the more standard ket? Also, it's really confusing that you use $S$ to refer to the Measurement apparatus and $M$ to refer to the System under study. This seems backwards. Finally, you should define $|F\rangle$ in the text. – DanielSank Nov 02 '14 at 04:56

2 Answers2

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Your assumption that the final state is factorizable in that way is the problem. You have let wave function collapse sneak into the back door. Why not let the final state be in a superposition also, as quantum mechanics requires? The alive cat is not aware of the dead cat, because the Schrödinger equation is linear.

lionelbrits
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  • "Why not let the final state be in a superposition also, as quantum mechanics requires?" What do you mean, QM says nothing about what happen to the measurement apparatus, and F can be a superposition here. But for the measured system it must not be a superposition after a measurement according to the collapse postulate. – agemO Dec 22 '14 at 20:41
  • Where can I buy an apparatus that is not made out of quantum mechanical atoms? – lionelbrits Dec 22 '14 at 20:48
  • I agree, what do you exactly want to say ? – agemO Dec 22 '14 at 20:50
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    Not everyone agrees that there has to be a definite state after measurement, I.e. collapse. If your measurement apparatus is quantum, then the whole system must be a solution to the S.E. and obey unitarity. Hence, the apparatus becomes entangled with the system, and does not collapse it. Decoherence prevents you from detecting this... – lionelbrits Dec 22 '14 at 20:54
  • Decoherence says how the entanglement happens, not why in the end we see only one result, maybe many world is more a better explanation for this – agemO Dec 22 '14 at 21:08
  • And that exactly my question : I used to believe that the standard interpretation was as likely as the other, but in fact it now seems to me that it is not even consistent with itself – agemO Dec 22 '14 at 21:10
  • I believe you have it the other way around. Decoherence is why the two superpositioned outcomes of the apparatus can't interfere with one another, so it seems like we have only one result. The entanglement happens as soon as the apparatus interacts with the system, and, indeed, during almost any interaction. (Neumann refers to these as measurements of the first kind) – lionelbrits Dec 22 '14 at 21:23
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    Ok, So I think the answer to my question is "Collapse can't happen" ? – agemO Dec 22 '14 at 22:05
  • @lionelbrits reductio ad absurdum does not work in Quantum Mechanics ... Gell Man says the say thing without being absurd :P

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNAw-xXCcM8

    In reference to: "Why not let the final state be in a superposition also, as quantum mechanics requires? The alive cat is not aware of the dead cat, because the Schrödinger equation is linear."

    – More Anonymous Sep 15 '19 at 08:34
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You are wrong in a couple of things:

1) As long as your particle (the system {S}) evolves unperturbed, it evolves unitarily - i.e. its evolution can be described as a unitary transformation. (There is an exception from this rule, but if the internal structure of the particle doesn't change during the particle evolution, the exception is not relevant). By unperturbed, I mean that the particle does not interact in any way with another particle. (It may pass though through classical fields, but let's assume that neither this happens).

2) The measurement apparatus is a macroscopic body. That means a conglomerate with an infinity of particles, and the number of particles cannot even be considered constant. So, to speak of a "state" of the apparatus doesn't make sense. We build indeed this apparatus to INDICATE the result F_1 when a particle of spin up impinges, and F_2 when a particle of spin down impinges. But we CANNOT SAY more than this. The interaction of the particle {S} with the apparatus is NON-unitary.

3) To convince you, let me tell you that a unitary transformation can be reversed (undone). The measurement by a macroscopic apparatus as I described above CANNOT be undone. Assuming that the measurement is non-destructive, and the particle exist the apparatus, say in the state spin up, if you send it back to the apparatus you won't restore the initial polarization, (1/sqrt(2)) (|up> + |down>).

Sofia
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  • So you are saying that QM is not consistent with itself, that is to say, if I use Shrodinger to find the evolution of the whole system (or even the entire universe), I will not find the same result as if I separate it in two subsystem ? In one case I will have a unitary transformation, in the other case no – agemO Nov 06 '14 at 03:50
  • "As long as your particle (the system {S}) evolves unperturbed, it evolves unitarily - i.e. its evolution can be described as a unitary transformation" I totally agree, that's also why the whole universe should follow a unitary evolution – agemO Nov 06 '14 at 15:41
  • What evidence do you have for the assertion that macroscopic systems can't have wave functions? – lionelbrits Dec 22 '14 at 16:12
  • The laws of classical physics are invariant under time reversal, yet we speak of irreversible processes. In the same way, we can have unitary evolution that cannot be undone due to coarse gaining – lionelbrits Dec 22 '14 at 17:00
  • "What evidence do you have for the assertion that macroscopic systems can't have wave functions?" I've never said this, my point is that the whole universe should have a wave function – agemO Dec 22 '14 at 20:43
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    Was directed at Sofia. – lionelbrits Dec 22 '14 at 21:01
  • @agemO: macroscopic systems having a wave-function? Let me give you an example belonging to Zeilinger (? I am not sure). Would you calculate the wave-length of a walking man? Assume that he walks with, say 1m/s. Assume his mass is, say 70Kg. Then his wavelength is $\lambda$ = h/mv = 6.28 x $10^{-27}$ / (7 x $10^6$) = 0.9 x $10^{-33}$cm. – Sofia Dec 22 '14 at 21:07
  • @agemO: But the problem is not only that the linear dimension of a man is tremendously bigger than the wave-length, which makes the quantum description impossible. The man is an open system, in perpetual exchange of substances with the environment. Thus, which wave-function? Which particles should be included in the w.f. and which not? Well, think of this answer of me, and after that we will judge the universe. – Sofia Dec 22 '14 at 21:14
  • A unitary transformation can't be undone if you don't know what transformation was done or you don't have control over all the systems involved. Both of these are true in real measurement systems. – alanf Jan 30 '15 at 09:50
  • @Sofia: In principle, an open system exchanging material with the environment can be described by quantum mechanics. You look at the evolution of the Heisenberg picture observables of all of the systems involved in the exchanges. A person is something like a pattern among those exchanges. The fault here is not with quantum mechanics but with the fact that physics in general has not been integrated with other parts of the rational worldview such as epistemology and information theory. See http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.7439. – alanf Jan 30 '15 at 10:32
  • @Sofia: Nevertheless ditching quantum mechanics is not a serious proposal for making progress. We can describe some general features of the multiverse without knowing all of the details, like the fact that it is well-described by a set of parallel universes in some respects. This can be understood in terms of limits imposed by QM when (some) information is copied from one system to another: http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703160 http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104033 – alanf Jan 30 '15 at 10:39
  • @alanf English is not my mother-tongue. I don't fully understand what you mean by "ditching". It seems some metaphor. So, please try a simpler wording. – Sofia Jan 30 '15 at 11:54
  • @Sofia: "Ditching" = saying it's false. – alanf Jan 30 '15 at 12:02
  • @alanf : Oh no! God gracious! When did I say that the QM is false? QM is absolutely correct. No experiment is known to us to contradict it. Would you tell me where do you see that I say that QM is false? Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. – Sofia Jan 30 '15 at 12:09
  • @Sofia: You say a quantum description of a man is impossible. What people usually mean when they say this is that they want to make an ad hoc modification to quantum theory where somehow everything becomes single valued for macroscopic objects. If I measure an unsharp electron spin there is only one version of me and he sees spin up or spin down or whatever. This contradicts the quantum mechanical equations of motion and so implies that the theory is false. It's not clear whether that is your position. – alanf Jan 30 '15 at 13:05