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If we imagine a 2d semisphere "bowl" with a ball resting at the bottom. The ball can be slightly displaced and will roll back and forth crossing the bottom of the bowl an infinite number of times over and over. I believe this motion can be approximated to be simple harmonic for small displacements from equilibrium, but it isn't completely.

What shape of bowl would be needed (it looks like $y=x^2$ doesn't work: Ball Rolling in a Parabolic Bowl) in order to have a ball placed at any point in the bowl to execute simple harmonic motion. Is this possible?

Edit: in reality I'm actually curious about a point mass "ball" with no moment of inertia for simplicity

Qmechanic
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Jack
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    I suppose what is meant is a) the harmonic motion in horizontal direction, b) the motion lies in the vertical plane passing through the lowest point in the bowl. – Roger V. Nov 23 '21 at 17:39
  • If you know a priori the solution of the brachistochrone problem then you would know that the arc length $:s(t):$ is a sinusodial function of time $:t$, see equation (b-04) in my answer here : What is the position as a function of time for a mass falling down a cycloid curve?. So you could find that a solution is the cycloid. But even in this case you have no proof that the solution is one and only one, that is that there is no other curve satisfying a SHM. – Frobenius Nov 24 '21 at 00:35
  • In my opinion the question must not be tagged "homework-and-exercises" due to reasons exposed in my previous comment. – Frobenius Nov 24 '21 at 00:43

4 Answers4

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The shape needed is one 'loop' or 'festoon' of a cycloid (or an upside-down cycloid). Taking the bottom of a loop as origin, the loop's equation may be written as $$x=a(\theta + \sin \theta),\ \ \ \ y=a(1-\cos\theta)$$ for $-\pi<\theta<\pi$, with $\theta=0$ at the bottom of the loop. We see that the horizontal range of the loop is $-\pi a<x<\pi a$. A bead threaded on this loop will perform SHM (not just approximate SHM) from whatever point on the loop it is released. [We can, of course, envisage a particle sliding in a bowl, vertical sections of which, passing through the lowest point, are cycloidal. A rolling ball will also perform translational SHM – at $\sqrt {\frac 57}$ of the frequency derived below, if the rolling ball is homogeneous.]

We can show that the arc length from the origin is $$s=4a \sin \frac{\theta}2$$ and this gives us the neat relation $$s^2 = 8ay$$ If the amplitude of the motion, expressed as a maximum height is $y_0$ (where $y_0<2a$), and as an arc length is $s_0$ (where $s_0<4a$), we can write the energy conservation equation as $$\tfrac12m \left(\frac{ds}{dt}\right)^2+mgy=mgy_0$$ That is $$\left(\frac{ds}{dt}\right)^2+\frac g{4a} s^2=\frac g{4a} s_0^2$$ You'll find that this is satisfied by $$s=s_0 \cos (\omega t + \phi)$$ with $\omega=\sqrt {\frac g{4a}}$. No approximations and a finite amplitude!

Addendum [inspired by dialogue of comments on Eli's answer]

As an alternative to the last step, if you differentiate the energy equation, $\left(\frac{ds}{dt}\right)^2+\frac g{4a} s^2=\frac g{4a} s_0^2\ \ $ wrt time, $t$, and tidy up you get the equation of motion $$\frac{d^2 s}{dt^2} + \frac g{4a} s = 0.$$

Philip Wood
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  • This is wonderful, but a cycloid doesn't go off to infinity so am I correct in understanding that the cycloid only works for a given $\vec v_0$ (assuming $\vec r_0$ is centered at the base?) Or at least it only works in a given energy range? – CR Drost Nov 23 '21 at 01:10
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    Yes. It works for $-\pi<\theta<\pi$, that is $-a\pi<x<a\pi$ and $0 \leq y <2a$. – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 07:55
  • @C R Drost That's quite right! It works only within one 'loop' of a cycloid. I've now made this clear (I hope) by adding stuff to the answer near the beginning. – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 11:12
  • This motion isn't SHM. The definition of SHM is that the acceleration must act towards a fixed point, the acceleration here is tangential to the bowl surface and it can't always be directed towards the same fixed point. – John Hunter Nov 23 '21 at 14:55
  • @John Hunter (a) The acceleration is directed along the arc to the fixed central point. (b) Many writers define shm by a differential equation or its solution, i.e. $x=A\cos(\omega t +\phi)$ allowing for the possibility of $x$ not being the displacement along a straight line. $x$ could, for example, be an angular displacement. – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 15:12
  • Excluding guessing and intuition I'm curious to know how you find a priori that the shape is a cycloid. In other words please give me the procedure by which I could find this result. – Frobenius Nov 23 '21 at 23:35
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    @ Frobenius Good question! Huygens solved the so-called 'tautochrone' problem around 1659. I don't know the method he used. I find that Wiki has a good discussion of various methods under 'tautochrone curve'. The Lagrangian approach, as described there, is very accessible. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 08:53
  • I not forgot. Very nice answer.☺️ – Sebastiano Nov 24 '21 at 10:11
  • Thanks for your responding. By the way, the bead executes also a SHM on the vertical $:y-$axis. – Frobenius Nov 24 '21 at 11:52
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    @Frobenius Yes indeed it does. At twice the frequency of the x-motion, or of the motion along the arc. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 11:57
  • In my opinion the motion on the $:x-$axis is not SHM. – Frobenius Nov 24 '21 at 12:08
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    @Frobenius I agree with your opinion. All I meant in my comment is that the frequency of the x-motion is the same as that of the s-motion, but that the frequency of the y-motion is twice that of the s or x. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 12:12
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    @Frobenius Of course it would be possible to modify my answer above to show that the required curve is a cycloid. One would only need to compare my first version of the energy equation (in which the potential energy is expressed as proportional to $y$) with the known requirement for shm that the PE is proportional to $s^2$. We must therefore have $s^2=by$ in which $b$ is some constant length. The only curve, as far as I know, for which this relationship holds is the cycloid. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 22:49
  • Two remarks : (1) I am completely ignorant about the "...known requirement for SHM that the PE is proportional to $:s^2$. (2) A curve is defined uniquely by its curvature and torsion as functions of a natural parameter. The equations $:\kappa=\kappa(s), \tau=\tau(s):$ which give the curvature and torsion of a curve as functions of $:s:$ are called the natural or intrinsic equations of a curve, for they completely define the curve. – Frobenius Nov 24 '21 at 23:15
  • ...uniquely : except translation and orientiation in space. – Frobenius Nov 24 '21 at 23:29
  • "I am completely ignorant about the "...known requirement for SHM that the PE is proportional to $s^2$" ". The requirement is explained in the addendum to my answer, that is if you accept $\frac{d^2s}{dt^2} + k^2 s = 0$ as the shm equation. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 23:32
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inspired from Mr. @ Phillip Wood

start with cycloidal equation

$$x=a \left( \varphi +\sin \left( \varphi \right) \right)\\ y=a \left( 1-\cos \left( \varphi \right) \right)$$ from here you obtain

$$x(y)=a \left( \arccos \left( {\frac {-y+a}{a}} \right) +\sqrt {{\frac {y \left( -y+2\,a \right) }{{a}^{2}}}} \right) $$

with the position vector

$$\mathbf R=\begin{bmatrix} \pm\,x(y) \\ y \\ \end{bmatrix}$$

the kinetic energy :

$$T=\frac m2 \mathbf{\dot{R}}\,\cdot \mathbf{\dot{R}}= \frac{m\,a}{y}\dot y^2$$

the potential energy :

$$U=-m\,g\,y$$ And the equation of motion

$$\ddot y+\frac{g}{2\,a}\,y-\frac{\dot y^2}{2\,y}=0\tag 2$$

hence

only if $\,\dot y\mapsto 0~$ you obtain SHM


edit

the solution of equation (2) with the initial conditions $~y(0)=y_0~,\dot y(0)=0~$ is

$$y(t)=\frac{y_0}{2}+\frac{y_0}{2}\,\cos(\omega\,t)\quad,\omega^2=\frac{g}{2a}$$

$\Rightarrow\quad y(t)-\frac{y_0}{2}~$ is SHM

Eli
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    (a) I agree with your equation of motion. And, as expected, you find that the frequency of vertical motion is twice that of the motion along the arc. (b) I don't understand your remark about $s=s_0 \cos(\omega t + \phi)$ not fulfilling eq 1. Note that the omega you need to use here is $\sqrt {g/4a}$. PS: It's nice to have inspired someone! – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 18:38
  • Probably my fault i take it out – Eli Nov 23 '21 at 21:24
  • @PhilipWoodI think that „my Solution „ is straight forward, then yours? – Eli Nov 23 '21 at 21:39
  • "I think that „my Solution „ is straight forward," Yes, I agree, but I think it would be more satisfying to consider more than just the vertical motion. For example, you can get the equation of motion along the curve by the (very easy) differentiation wrt $t$ of the equation $\left(\frac{ds}{dt}\right)^2 +\frac g{4a}s^2=\frac g{4a}s_0^2$. But it's largely a matter of taste. – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 22:20
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What shape must a bowl be to have a ball rolling in the bowl execute perfect simple harmonic motion?

starting with the position vector to the mass \begin{align*} &\mathbf{R}=\begin{bmatrix} x(y) \\ y \\ \end{bmatrix} \end{align*} where $~x(y)~$ is arbitrary function and y is the generalized coordinate

from here the kinetic , potential energy \begin{align*} &T=\frac{m}{2}\left(x'^2+1\right)\,\dot y^2\\ &U=-m\,g\,y\\ \end{align*} and the total energy

\begin{align*} &E_s= \frac{m}{2}\left(x'^2+1\right)\,\dot y^2+m\,g\,y\\ \end{align*} where $~x'=\frac{dx}{dy}$

for SHM the total energy must be (Ansatz)

\begin{align*} &E_{\text{shm}}=\frac{m}{2}\dot{y}^2+\frac k2\,y^2 \end{align*}

\begin{align*} &\text{with conservation of the energy }\\ & E_s=\frac{m}{2}\left(x'^2+1\right)\,\dot y^2+m\,g\,y=m\,g\,y_0\quad\Rightarrow\quad \dot y^2=-\frac{2\,g(y-y_0)}{x'^2+1}\\ & E_{shm}=\frac{m}{2}\dot{y}^2+\frac k2\,y^2=\frac k2\,y_0^2\quad\Rightarrow\quad \dot y^2=-\frac km\,(y^2-y_0^2) \end{align*}

and solving for $~x'^2~$ with $~y_0=0$ \begin{align*} &\left(\frac{dx}{dy}\right)^2=\frac{2\,a}{y}-1\quad, a=\frac{\,m\,g}{k} \end{align*}

this differential equation fulfilled the cycloid equation

\begin{align*} &x=a\,(\varphi +\sin(\varphi))\\ &y=a\,(1 -\cos(\varphi))\\ \end{align*}

hence the shape that create SHM is cycloid


edit

for $~y_0\ne 0~$ you obtain

$$\left( {\frac {d}{dy}}x \left( y \right) \right) ^{2}=-{\frac {y}{y+ {\it y0}}}+2\,{\frac {mg}{ \left( y+{\it y0} \right) k}}-{\frac {{\it y0}}{y+{\it y0}}} \tag A$$

this differential equation fulfilled also the cycloid equation. solving Eq. (A) you obtain $~x=x(y)~$ the solution of the equation of motion is now

$$y(t)=y_0\,\cos\left(\omega\,t\right)\\ \omega^2=\frac km=\frac ga$$

Eli
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  • If I may say so, this has the makings of an excellent answer. I followed it up to $E_\text{shm}=\frac m2 \dot y^2 +mgy^2$, but couldn't understand this equation. For one thing the dimensions of the last term are not those of energy. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 18:26
  • Thank you this was not correct I think I have now the general solution, I was wondering why you "took" , the cycloid for your solution ? – Eli Nov 24 '21 at 19:43
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    I had read, a long time ago, that Huygens, around 360 years ago, showed that the cycloid was a 'tautochrome'' so the periodic time for a particle sliding in a cycloidal bowl was independent of amplitude. I was delighted to discover that this was so easy to show, using the slick mathematical formalism that was not available in Huygens's day. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 20:29
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    I've got the gist of your answer now. Not quite sure, though, why you can put $y_0 =0$. – Philip Wood Nov 24 '21 at 23:40
  • Because with $y_0$ , the conservation of the energy is still valid. – Eli Nov 25 '21 at 07:33
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    But $y_0$ is the amplitude of the $y$–motion, is it not? It can't, sensibly, be zero. Anyway, your edit has dealt with the problem. – Philip Wood Nov 25 '21 at 15:15
  • So we have the solution that the shape must be cycloid, this is what i wanted to show about 0=0, i am not sure ? If you solve the differential equation, generate the equation of motion and then solve for y(t) you still obtain SHM ( the IC(0)=0 – Eli Nov 25 '21 at 17:08
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Simple Harmonic Motion takes place along a straight line, so the bowl shape leads approximately to SHM only if the displacement is very small.

The acceleration down a slope depends on the angle $\theta$ with the horizontal ($x$ axis), it's $g\sin\theta$. For small angles that's equal to $g\tan\theta$ as both sin and cos approximate to $\theta$ for small angles.

For SHM the acceleration must be proportional to $x$

so the acceleration is $$g\sin\theta = g\tan\theta = g\frac{dy}{dx} = kx$$

Where $k$ is a constant of proportionality

Solving this gives $$y = \frac{kx^2}{2g}$$

and the ball will do SHM in such a bowl, but only for small displacements.

John Hunter
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  • this comment I got with my solution which is down vote

    "OP is asking for the shape of the bowl. Your answer assumes a spherical bowl. This shape doesn't cause the ball to execute perfect SHM for all displacements."

    – Eli Nov 22 '21 at 23:01
  • @ Eli This answer doesn't assume a spherical bowl. It's a $y=x^2$ shape. Also it was mentioned at the beginning of the answer that solution for large displacements isn't possible as SHM must be along a straight line. – John Hunter Nov 22 '21 at 23:04
  • The ball will do SHM in many different bowl shapes for small displacements... The OP is asking for a bowl shape that causes SHM for all displacements. – hft Nov 22 '21 at 23:04
  • for example, if the bowl is spherical, small displacements also undergo SHM – hft Nov 22 '21 at 23:05
  • @hft.. That's not possible, as SHM must be along a straight line – John Hunter Nov 22 '21 at 23:05
  • OP asks explicitly: "in order to have a ball placed at any point in the bowl to execute simple harmonic motion." – hft Nov 22 '21 at 23:06
  • @JohnHunter the spherical bowl has SHM for the angular coordinate for small displacements. But this is also not what OP is asking for. – hft Nov 22 '21 at 23:07
  • @hft as mentioned, it's not possible for large displacements, the post says "for small displacements" – John Hunter Nov 22 '21 at 23:09
  • @JohnHunter the post says "a ball placed at any point in the bowl." This is clearly an easy problem if you only consider small displacements, and clearly any shape with an equilibrium position will work. OP is not asking about small displacements only. – hft Nov 22 '21 at 23:11
  • @hft and the first line of the answer makes that clear – John Hunter Nov 22 '21 at 23:11
  • But then your answer is not answering the question that was asked, and so it should be deleted. – hft Nov 22 '21 at 23:12
  • think, I'll leave it. It gives the solution for small displacements and also mentions that SHM is not possible for larger ones. – John Hunter Nov 22 '21 at 23:16
  • @John Hunter Can you give sources for the claim that SHM must be along a straight line? It seems unduly restrictive to me. For example, I'd say that the balance wheel in an old-fashioned clockwork watch is doing SHM. Rotational SHM if you like. – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 14:27
  • @ Philip Wood, it's in the definition of SHM that the force must always act towards a fixed point. For the bowl the acceleration is tangential to the surface and from a quick diagram it can be seen that if the bowl is curved the acceleration can't always be directed towards the same fixed point. For the watch, it's approximately SHM for small rotations, if it was rotated half a turn, the acceleration of a point on the rim could not be directed towards the same point as it was when it was rotated by a small angle. – John Hunter Nov 23 '21 at 14:42
  • @ Philip Wood, your answer was popular, but to be honest doesn't seem to be SHM, so a comment was put under it to clarify, the question has some problems as SHM isn't possible for the bowl, all the best. – John Hunter Nov 23 '21 at 14:57
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    @John Hunter We both know that the most popular answers aren't always the best, but I cannot comment on answers to this particular question! We must agree to differ on what counts as SHM: I'm much more liberal than you are on this. For me, SHM means simply "varying sinusoidally with time". I think you'll find that this is a very common usage. – Philip Wood Nov 23 '21 at 19:58
  • @ Philip Wood , that's fair enough, I've seen the angular version, but thought it was for small displacements, anyway we can agree to differ, think it's time for another question... – John Hunter Nov 23 '21 at 20:35