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I am new to the field of signal processing. I am wondering what is the difference between DFS(Fourier Series) vs. DFT(Fourier Transform).

For common applications, usually we get a segment(length N) of digital waveform(like a audio segment), and then we apply FFT(DFT) and then do post-analysis with it.

I am wondering if we can use DFS(thus not using DFT at all) all the time and just assume the waveform segment is repeated with period N. Would this naive thinking/approach cause any problems?

aha
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  • Thanks for the quick reply. As you mentioned, there is a transform for discrete periodic signal. Why can't we assume the digital signal we received(in a buffer of length N) to be always periodic with period N ? (cause if you do this you will get perfect reconstruction as well) – aha Sep 08 '14 at 19:15
  • the point is @YvesDaoust, is that aha asked about the difference between the Discrete Fourier Series and the DFT. the answer is ... (below). – robert bristow-johnson Sep 08 '14 at 19:23
  • but the reconstruction will be perfect for the signal within the region of interest right (the sampled and stored N values) ? for example, if you load your entire MP3 music song into a big array(length is N) and just assume the music is repeated outside this array(with period N). Would there be any problems if you proceed frequency analysis like this? (thanks for your patience :) ) – aha Sep 08 '14 at 19:27
  • perhaps not @YvesDaoust, but periodic extension of the signal is what the DFT (or the DFS) does. – robert bristow-johnson Sep 08 '14 at 20:11
  • For googlers, further reading is "DFT periodicity". Only DFS has periodicity baked into the definition, while it sometimes makes sense to assume it of DFT (and that's poor wording). See e.g. 1, 2, 3 – OverLordGoldDragon Feb 08 '23 at 16:23
  • For @OverLordGoldDragon and other readers, there is never an occasion where it makes sense to *not* recognize that the DFT will periodically extend the $N$ samples of data passed to it. It *always* does that. Always. – robert bristow-johnson Feb 12 '23 at 17:33

5 Answers5

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There is no operational difference between what is commonly called the Discrete Fourier Series (DFS) and the Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT). On the USENET newsgroup comp.dsp, we have had fights about this topic multiple times (if Google Groups wasn't so badly broken and messed up, I might be able to point you to the threads) and, despite the deniers, there is no, none whatsoever, operational difference between what is sometimes labeled as the DFS but most commonly labeled as the DFT. (The "FFT" is essentially an efficient or fast method of calculating the DFT.)

robert bristow-johnson
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  • Thanks for the clarification !! I'll keep the question open for a few hours just to see if I get more opinions. – aha Sep 08 '14 at 19:32
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    @YvesDaoust, please get a copy of Oppenheim and Schafer (and Buck) and take a look at their chapter on the DFT. i have the 1989 version, so my page numbers might be different, but i can quote them and they put it in as stark language as me: the DFT and DFS are one-and-the-same. – robert bristow-johnson Sep 08 '14 at 20:13
  • @YvesDaoust: They're talking about the DISCRETE Fourier series, so there's no integral involved. – Matt L. Sep 09 '14 at 20:07
  • For very short sequences though, as with short Filter Banks, the difference can show IMO – Laurent Duval Jan 13 '18 at 14:50
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    i would be interested in seeing any operational difference between DFS and DFT that you can show, @LaurentDuval. i have to confess that i have my doubts. – robert bristow-johnson Jan 13 '18 at 18:02
  • Thie "edge" of a challenge – Laurent Duval Jan 13 '18 at 18:14
  • DFS and DFT will still see that "edge" identically. – robert bristow-johnson Jan 13 '18 at 18:15
  • According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_Fourier_series, "The term discrete Fourier series (DFS) is intended for use instead of DFT when the original function is periodic, defined over an infinite interval.", i.e. when the extrapolation of the inverse DFT matches the signal outside the DFT frame which only occurs if the DFT is framed on a repeating part of the signal. Personally, I think the DFS label should be as Macleod defines it: "Discrete Fourier Spectrum". Using DFT for both the transform and the output is sometimes misleading. – Cedron Dawg Aug 26 '20 at 15:11
  • What am I looking for? I see Bob K in the right column and this dates back to 2010. – Cedron Dawg Aug 27 '20 at 01:45
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    @CedronDawg well, there's a sorta circularity involved when using a wikipedia article that BobK wrote as a justification for BobK's position that you apparently like. i'm not particularly impressed with circular justification of reasoning regarding a simply clear mathematical notion. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 27 '20 at 02:42
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    @robertbristow-johnson I wasn't addressing the "authoritay" of the reference. Let's just get it straight (and you are oriented backwards mathematically).$$ $$1)The DTFT is a generalization of the DFT, not the DFT is a sampling of the DTFT. Other generalizations are possible. (Thus your "what does sampling.." question is meaningless)$$ $$2) The bin values of the 1/N DFT form the coefficients of the continuous Fourier Series.$$ $$3) The continuous FS, or the discrete FS, can be extrapolated (and will repeat), but that is not part of the definition of the DFT, or its inverse (not reciprocal). – Cedron Dawg Aug 27 '20 at 11:53
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    //1) The DTFT is a generalization of the DFT, ...// because why? (better not say "by definition".) $$ $$

    // ... not the DFT is a sampling of the DTFT.// but it *is* that. (whether it's "by definition" or as a consequence.) The DFT *is* precisely the uniform sampling of the DTFT and uniform sampling in one domain causes *what* to happen in the reciprocal domain?

    – robert bristow-johnson Aug 28 '20 at 09:01
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    //2) The bin values of the 1/N DFT form the coefficients of the continuous Fourier Series.// Now explain, without any contrived definition, how that is inconsistent with the fact that the DFT is a mapping of one periodic discrete sequence to another periodic discrete sequence? (both having period $N$.) – robert bristow-johnson Aug 28 '20 at 09:07
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    //3) The continuous FS, or the discrete FS, can be extrapolated (and will repeat), but that is not part of the definition of the DFT, or its inverse (not reciprocal).// Operators (or "transforms" or "mappings" in the sense of metric spaces) have inverses if they are bijective (or "one-to-one"). But I was using the term "reciprocal" not as a property or attribute of an operator, but as applied to domains. It's not an "inverse domain". $$ $$ Now will either one of you even begin to answer any of the questions I asked? – robert bristow-johnson Aug 28 '20 at 09:16
  • -1 because of firstly overloading "operational" and secondly misleading the spirit of the question which is conceptual. "Would this naive thinking/approach cause any problems? " - yes. – OverLordGoldDragon Feb 08 '23 at 16:05
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    My goodness, I stand *solidly* by my answer, @OverLordGoldDragon . The question *is* conceptual and my answer deals with a central concept to the question. "I am wondering if we can use DFS(thus not using DFT at all) all the time and just assume the waveform segment is repeated with period N." This is exactly what the DFT and DFS ( which are exactly the same thing ) are about. The answer is pertinent and solid, your objection notwithstanding. – robert bristow-johnson Feb 08 '23 at 19:30
  • @OverLordGoldDragon I would invite you to read the "exposition" below a bit. Maybe take up your objection with Oppenheim and Schafer. – robert bristow-johnson Feb 08 '23 at 19:33
  • well I hope one day the right words will magically form in my head so I don't have to spend an hour on it. You'll never see my point from a purely CFT, standard signal processing point of view. – OverLordGoldDragon Feb 09 '23 at 11:20
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Okay, I'm gonna expound a little.

Quoting (except for any typos that may result) from the 1989 text of O&S (Introduction to Chapter 8, The Discrete Fourier Transform, p 514):

Although several points of view can be taken toward the derivation and interpretation of the DFT representation of a finite-duration sequence, we have chosen to base our presentation on the relationship between periodic sequences and finite-length sequences. We will begin by considering the Fourier series representation of periodic sequences. While this representation is important in its own right, we are most often interested in the application of Fourier series results to the representation of finite-length sequences. We accomplish this by constructing a periodic sequence for which each period is identical to the finite-length sequence. As we will see, the Fourier series representation of the periodic sequence corresponds to the DFT of the finite-length sequence. Thus our approach is to define the Fourier series representation for periodic sequences and to study the properties of such representations. Then we repeat essentially the same derivations assuming that the sequence to be represented is a finite-length sequence. This approach to the DFT emphasizes the fundamental inherent periodicity of the DFT representation and ensures that this periodicity is not overlooked in applications of the DFT.

Section 8.1, p 516 on the DFS:

Eq. (8.11) $\quad \tilde{X}[k] = \sum\limits^{N-1}_{n=0} \tilde{x}[n] \ e^{-j2\pi n k/N} $

Eq. (8.12) $\quad \tilde{x}[n] = \frac{1}{N} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{k=0} \tilde{X}[k] \ e^{+j2\pi n k/N} $

Regarding the DFS, $\tilde{x}[n]$ (with the tilde) is defined to be periodic with period $N$ such that $$ \tilde{x}[n+N] = \tilde{x}[n] \quad \forall n $$ and $\tilde{X}[k]$ turns out to also be periodic with period $N$ (so $ \tilde{X}[k+N] = \tilde{X}[k] \quad \forall k $).

Later, in section 8.6, p 532 on the DFT:

Eq. (8.59) $\quad X[k] = \begin{cases} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{n=0} x[n] \ e^{-j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le k \le N-1 \\ 0, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

Eq. (8.60) $\quad x[n] = \begin{cases} \frac{1}{N} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{k=0} X[k] \ e^{+j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le n \le N-1 \\ 0, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

Generally the DFT analysis and synthesis equations are written as

Eq. (8.61) $\quad X[k] = \sum\limits^{N-1}_{n=0} x[n] \ e^{-j2\pi n k/N} $

Eq. (8.62) $\quad x[n] = \frac{1}{N} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{k=0} X[k] \ e^{+j2\pi n k/N} $

In recasting Eqs. (8.11) and (8.12) in the form of Eqs. (8.61) and (8.62) for the finite-duration sequences, we have not eliminated the inherent periodicity. As with the DFS, the DFT $X[k]$ is equal to samples of the periodic Fourier transform $X(e^{j\omega})$, and if Eq. (8.62) is evaluated for values of $n$ outside the interval $0 \le n \le N-1$, the result will not be zero but rather a periodic extension of $x[n]$. The inherent periodicity is always present. Sometimes it causes us difficulty and sometimes we can exploit it, but to totally ignore it is to invite trouble.

So the first obvious thing i would say is that the tildes used for the DFS (to explicitly depict a periodic sequence) are symbols and still do not change any mathematical fact. The direct relationship between the periodic $\tilde{x}[n]$ and the "finite-length" $x[n]$ is

$$ \tilde{x}[n] = x[n \bmod N] \qquad \forall n \in \mathbb{Z}, \ N \in \mathbb{Z}>0$$

where $ \qquad\qquad\qquad n \bmod N = n - N \left\lfloor \frac{n}{N} \right\rfloor $.

Now I know some folks will point to the Eqs. (8.59) and (8.60) definition of the DFT that has truncated (to $0$) values outside of the interval $0 \le n,k \le N-1$.

However, that definition is contrived. It could just as well be expressed as

$\quad X[k] = \begin{cases} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{n=0} x[n] \ e^{-j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le k \le N-1 \\ 5, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

$\quad x[n] = \begin{cases} \frac{1}{N} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{k=0} X[k] \ e^{+j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le n \le N-1 \\ 5, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

or

$\quad X[k] = \begin{cases} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{n=0} x[n] \ e^{-j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le k \le N-1 \\ 5000, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

$\quad x[n] = \begin{cases} \frac{1}{N} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{k=0} X[k] \ e^{+j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le n \le N-1 \\ 5000, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

or

$\quad X[k] = \begin{cases} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{n=0} x[n] \ e^{-j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le k \le N-1 \\ \text{the man on the moon}, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

$\quad x[n] = \begin{cases} \frac{1}{N} \sum\limits^{N-1}_{k=0} X[k] \ e^{+j2\pi n k/N}, & 0 \le n \le N-1 \\ \text{and his hot girlfriend}, & \text{otherwise} \end{cases} $

Because that $0$ in that contrived DFT definition will never ever be used in any theorems regarding the DFT. When that contrived definition is used for the DFT, then when using any DFT theorems to do any real work (other than the linearity and scaling by constant theorems), then one must use modulo arithmetic in the arguments of $x[n]$ or $X[k]$. And using that modulo arithmetic is explicitly periodically extending the sequence.

So (sorta responding to hotpaw) there are two or three processes that you should think about when using the DFT on a real signal.

  1. The sampling process: what happens to the spectrum of $x(t)$ when you sample it with a "dirac comb" or whatever you want to call the sampling function?

  2. Windowing to finite length: what happens when you window either $x(t)$ or the sampled version, $x[n]$, with a rectangular window of length $N$?

  3. Periodic extension: what happens when you periodically extend it by repeatedly shifting the windowed $x[n]$ by $N$ samples and overlap and add it?

Deal with each step by itself.

robert bristow-johnson
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  • one little factoid to add is this: Uniform sampling of a signal in one domain (say, the "time domain") corresponds to periodic extension of the Fourier Transform of that signal in the reciprocal domain (say, the "frequency domain"). and because of the symmetry of the Fourier Transform and its inverse, the converse is also just as true. – robert bristow-johnson Sep 09 '14 at 17:30
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    I don't think this topic is fully clarified. I have in front of me the book of Oppenheim & Willsky, "Signals and Systems" (2nd Edition) and, on page 396, there's a table named "TABLE 5.3 SUMMARY OF FOURIER SERIES AND TRANSFORM EXPRESSIONS". On this table we can see four cases, and two of them are for discrete time signals, or sequences, if you prefer. On the same table, it is called Discrete Fourier Series (DFS) to a Fourier Analysis of a discrete time periodic signal, and a Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT) to a Fourier Analysis of a discrete time aperiodic signal (which, I guess, it's not cor – user2600550 Feb 08 '23 at 15:29
  • I have read your deleted answer. I have to disagree with @PeterK. about deleting the answer, since it doesn't fit into a comment. I do not have Oppenheim and Wilsky, so I cannot see what they did but normally I break the pedagogy into a 2-by-2 matrix of concepts as shown in Table 4.1 in this short document. – robert bristow-johnson Feb 10 '23 at 06:04
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If the assumption matches the actual data (the FFT length comes from shaft synchronous sampling, etc.) then it may be useful. If the assumption is false, as it often is for a random audio frame, then false assumptions can produce false or misleading results. For example, windowing artifacts ("leakage") are often not actual spectral frequencies present in the longer audio stream. An extended reconstruction with these artifacts would contain stuff not present in the actual longer audio stream.

hotpaw2
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  • hot, as was the discussion years ago on comp.dsp, the windowing artifacts come from windowing and are not a consequence of the DFT. the DFT takes its finite set of adjacent samples and periodically extends that sequence. exactly as the DFS does. window is as windowing does, and the correct place to assign blame for windowing artifacts is the windowing operation itself. – robert bristow-johnson Sep 08 '14 at 20:10
  • The DFT transform matrix is of finite size, not infinite. And it is impossible to do any finite length DFT without windowing the real world. Therefore a windowing artifact is inherent in doing a DFT for almost all practical purposes (other than shaft synchronous sampled, etc.). For imaginary purposes, perhaps otherwise. – hotpaw2 Sep 08 '14 at 20:43
  • no, the DFT does not do the windowing. what the DFT does inherently do is periodically extend the data passed to it. the DFT maps a given $N$-periodic sequence in one domain (call it the "time domain" if you like) to another $N$-periodic sequence in the reciprocal domain. and the iDFT maps it back. that's what it does. – robert bristow-johnson Sep 09 '14 at 14:25
  • A matrix multiply doesn’t inherently do anything except multiply. A DFT is just a matrix multiply. – hotpaw2 Dec 25 '17 at 17:11
  • but the vectors that the matrix multiplies are circular. there is nothing special about $x[0]$ (except that it is the average of all of the $X[k]$). $x[N-1]$ comes before $x[0]$ as naturally as any $x[n]$ comes before $x[n+1]$. – robert bristow-johnson Dec 25 '17 at 22:24
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The periodic summation $\ \tilde{x}[n] \triangleq \sum_{k=-\infty}^{\infty} x[n + kN]\ $ reduces to a periodic extension when the non-zero duration of $x$ is $\le N$.

And in that case, $\ \tilde{X}[k] \equiv X[k],\ \forall k$.

Otherwise, $X[k]$ is undefined, and $\ \tilde{X}[k]\ $ is a sample of the continuous and periodic DTFT (discrete-time Fourier transform) of the $x$ sequence.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete-time_Fourier_transform#Sampling_the_DTFT

As I recall from Oppenheim & Shafer, the case of $x$ having longer duration than $N$ does not serve any of their purposes, so they do not even mention it.
Update: Upon refreshing my memory, they do mention it. pp 557-58 (2nd edition, 1999).

Bob K
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    Okay, Bob, we got your comment. First of all, I would ask @PeterK or the other admins to please give BobK the initial 100 points that I got when I came here from out of the cold. $$ $$ Secondly, I would be happy to have a discussion (debate?) about this here. But I am not sure that the SE powers that be want a debate in the comments. BobK, can you comment on your own answer? try that. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 26 '20 at 00:11
  • @Robert - I thank you for the handy O&S formulas! If we still disagree, let's just agree to disagree. I've had my say, and folks can take it or leave it. – Bob K Aug 26 '20 at 01:11
  • Bob, it's math. It's not politics. it's not about which persuasion one subscribes. It's not even whose opinion gets backed up by one or two others. The O&S text was only because sometimes someone else's words are better than mine and I can recognize that. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 26 '20 at 03:11
  • You can call it "Undefined", you can call it "$0$", you can call it "The man on the moon". It doesn't matter because whatever you call it, outside of $0\le n<N$, that value will never ever ever be used in any theorem regarding the DFT. Any theorem will either be about linearity or scaling (no shifting is done, so it doesn't matter if it's circular) or, if shifting is done in the theorem, it must be modulo arithmetic on the index. That is periodic extension. It's unavoidable. The relationship between $x[N-1]$ and $x[0]$ is identical to that between $x[0]$ and $x[1]$. No exceptions. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 26 '20 at 03:16
  • You are a man of many words, but I will try to be brief. If you truncate the $x$ sequence to compute $X[k]$, then it will not be equivalent to $\ \tilde{X}[k]$. The transforms are different (or one of them is undefined) when the $x$ sequence is longer than $N$, as is commonly found in WOLA FFT channelizers. – Bob K Aug 26 '20 at 11:33
  • I don't quite agree with RB-J on this one either. It is definitionally clear that the DFT is the same as a windowed DTFT sampled at $\omega$ values that correspond to integer values of $k$. $$ X[k] = \sum_{n=0}^{N-1} x[n] e^{-i\frac{2\pi}{N}nk} = \sum_{n=-\infty}^{\infty} w[n] x[n] e^{-i\omega n} $$ where $$ \omega = \frac{2\pi}{N} k $$ Definitionally, the DFT is blind to what is outside its domain, makes no assumptions about it. There is a big difference between "looks like" or "behaves like" and "is". With a 1/N normalization, the spectrum values are equivalent to the DFS coefficients. – Cedron Dawg Aug 26 '20 at 12:38
  • @robertbristow-johnson I've upvoted all three of his answers to help get him to 100. Clearly he is competent and knowledgeable, but a practitioner of "engineering math". – Cedron Dawg Aug 26 '20 at 15:07
  • so Ced, what happens to the windowed DTFT that gets sampled at integer values of $\frac{2\pi}{N}$? Sampling in one domain does what to the reciprocal domain? – robert bristow-johnson Aug 26 '20 at 23:26
  • @robertbristow-johnson I'm confused by the point you are trying to make. Sampling the DTFT at $k$ integer values is equivalent to the DFT. You need the window in the DTFT to limit the summation range to match that of the DFT. I figured the definition of $w[n]$ was obvious from the context and the length of comments is limited. $w[n]=1$ for $0\le n \le N-1$, zero otherwise. Very similar to the comparison to the FT I make here: https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/69430/amplitude-after-fourier-transform/69432#69432 – Cedron Dawg Aug 27 '20 at 01:49
  • @robertbristow-johnson The DFT is a matrix multiplication. It does not care what is between the bins nor outside its domain. It is the "continuous based" foundational paradigm that makes you think it should match the DTFT between the bins. The bin value formulas for pure real tones I came up with match the DTFT at the bins, but are different in between. They are just as valid as defining the bin values as the DFT definition, with the added benefit of being invertible. Because of that blind spot, exact frequency formulas for pure tones from bin values had not been found until I came along. – Cedron Dawg Aug 27 '20 at 02:05
  • @CedronDawg: // I'm confused by the point you are trying to make.// i asked a pretty simple and completely straight-forward question. // Sampling the DTFT at k integer values is equivalent to the DFT.// that's true, but the question i asked is: Sampling in one domain does what to the reciprocal domain? Would you please answer that? – robert bristow-johnson Aug 27 '20 at 02:45
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    //The DFT is a matrix multiplication// No, it's a specific mapping that is implemented with a specific matrix multiplication. //It does not care what is between the bins nor outside its domain.// i didn't say anything about what is between the bins so the first part of your assertion is not contested and the latter part of your statement is simply false, if you mean that the DFT does not care about what is $x[n]$ outside of the set $n: 0 \le n <N$. it most certainly cares. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 27 '20 at 02:51
  • @robertbristow-johnson We're getting the chat prompt here. This is futile anyway as you are definitionally incorrect. "Sampling in one domain does what to the reciprocal domain?' A: It loses uniqueness. – Cedron Dawg Aug 27 '20 at 12:05
  • @robertbristow-johnson I think my post at https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/16586/difference-between-discrete-time-fourier-transform-and-discrete-fourier-transfor/69936#69936 will answer your question. Or you can follow the Wikipedia link I've already provided. – Bob K Aug 27 '20 at 12:11
  • //This is futile anyway as you are definitionally incorrect.// Nope, you cannot make that case. Neither am I "definitionally incorrect" when I have asserted a property. And I have pointed out that the "definition" that you are appealing to is contrived and simply has *zero* consequence. It is not an operational definition. Truncating (or windowing) either the argument or returned result of the DFT is not operationally meaningful to the DFT. It can be done to either the argument or returned result, but that is a separate operation. It is not the mathematical definition. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 28 '20 at 09:26
  • // I think my post at dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/16586/… will answer your question. Or you can follow the Wikipedia link I've already provided.// @BobK, you can't simply refer to your own writing to make an appeal to "definition" to justify your own assertion. $$ $$ You are simply failing to even try to directly answer a direct question put to you. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 28 '20 at 09:30
  • //"Sampling in one domain does what to the reciprocal domain?' A: It loses uniqueness.// Nope. There are many ways you can "lose uniqueness". $$ $$ Sampling in one domain causes periodic extension in the reciprocal domain. As a consequence you lose data. In the one domain (let's say the "time" domain), you lose data that was in between the samples. In the other domain, you lose data when an infinite number of shifted copies of the original spectrum are overlapped and added. Adding even just two numbers together results in loss of data. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 28 '20 at 09:36
  • //you can't simply refer to your own writing to make an appeal to "definition" to justify your own assertion// @Robert Even if it was "my own writing" (meaning unreferenced), I was just trying to answer your question. Wikipedia holds us to a higher standard than here, which is why the writing you attribute to me has a reference to pp 557-59 of O&S. And upon refreshing my memory, Fig 8.9 and the context around it is the answer you were looking for, and that I gave you. You're welcome. – Bob K Aug 28 '20 at 12:11
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    //Wikipedia holds us to a higher standard than here, // where did you come up with that? Did you respond to *any* of the points I made? You can call it "Undefined", you can call it "$0$". Outside of the principal interval of $0 \le n \le N-1$ it doesn't matter what you call it, because if you do anything that requires shifting, you *must* use modulo arithmetic and that is explicitly periodic extension. Again, the relationship between $x[N-1]$ and $x[0]$ is exactly the same relationship as between $x[0]$ and $x[1]$. Always. – robert bristow-johnson Aug 29 '20 at 17:51
  • I'm new here. But what I see is people ask questions, and people freely post their opinions. Nobody's opinion gets deleted for lack of a peer-reviewed citation. But that does happen at Wikipedia, and it is condoned by official policy. – Bob K Aug 31 '20 at 01:11
  • //Did you respond to any of the points I made?// No. They don't make sense to me, and it's not my "job" to decipher your arguments. Mine are out there with yours, and other readers can decide for themselves whom to believe. I'm truly sorry we can't agree, but I'm not much interested in perpetual argument. I feel I've made my point. That's all I'm willing to do. – Bob K Aug 31 '20 at 01:30
  • // No. They don't make sense to me,...// That's on you. I am only going to argue the mathematics and the mathematics say that when you pass $N$ samples of $x[n]$ to the DFT, the DFT inherently periodically extends those $N$ samples into $\tilde{x}[n]$. Whether you want to add the tilde to the symbols $x$ or $X$ doesn't matter. All of the properties of periodic extension apply. – robert bristow-johnson Sep 01 '20 at 01:32
  • I don't disagree with that statement, as far as it goes. The point you are missing is what happens when the non-zero duration of $x$ is larger than the DFT size ($N$). Then your formula $ \tilde{x}[n] = x[n \bmod N]$ is incorrect. But I feel like we're just repeating ourselves. – Bob K Sep 01 '20 at 11:41
  • If the non-zero duration of $x$ is larger than the DFT size ($N$), then methinks one should take the DFT of $y[n\operatorname{mod} N]$, where $y$ is $x$ convolved by $[\ldots, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, \ldots, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, \ldots, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, \ldots]$ that is periodic with fundamental period $N$ and has value $1$ at origin. – Olli Niemitalo Sep 04 '20 at 09:11
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    Yes Olli. That convolution result is the periodic summation in the top line of this Answer (Aug 25'20). The non-zero portions of the $x$ sequence Over-Lap and are Added. Then the $N$-length DFT is the line labeled "Eq (8.11)" in RBJ's previous Answer (Sep 9'14). The result is $N$ samples of one cycle of the DTFT of the original $x$ sequence. (see https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/16586/difference-between-discrete-time-fourier-transform-and-discrete-fourier-transfor/69936#69936) As I already mentioned (Aug 26'20, 11:33), an acronym for this procedure is WOLA (Weighted Over-Lap Add). – Bob K Sep 04 '20 at 14:19
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    Part 2 (because of the character limit per comment): By design, the more overlap, the better the potential suppression of crosstalk in a WOLA channelizer. In a high dynamic range application, an $x$ sequence length in the range $6N$ - $8N$ would not be surprising. – Bob K Sep 05 '20 at 10:55
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I'll give you my gut feeling on the subject...

DFS (Discrete Fourier Series) vs. DFT (Discrete Fourier Transform)

Tilda vs. no Tilda.

DFS time sequence $\tilde{x}[n]$ includes only the first $N$ samples of sequence $x[n]$ by definition:

$$ \tilde{x}[n] = \sum_{k=-\infty}^{\infty} x[n + kN] $$

and they are repeated over and over ad infinitum...thus, the DFS doesn't have any statistical variations...its mathematically pure and unchanging... variance and standard deviation = 0 forever.

In comparison, the assumption of the DFT is that its taken over a statically "average" periodic period of the samples of $x[n]$… a crude application of the DFT is that since you don't know which of the $k$ periods is most statically average, then you just guess its whatever period you are observing.. and all other periods may have possible additive noise... now since $x[n]$ can have statistical variation in the periodic $x[n]$ signal, and variance is not zero, by central limit theorem as you approach infinity the noise cancels out over time if you average each of the terms of the periodic sequence over time... (a common statistical variation being additive gaussian white noise (AGWN) which averages itself out as n approaches infinity...assuming you are taking an average value for each coefficent over time...)

So in summary DFS and DFT may look mathematically the same, but statistically they are different animals. So if you like to nerd out on the use of tilda's there's an explanation... Along that line of thought, I would like to make a Platonic allegory of the distinguish between the "world of images" verse the "world of ideal forms". DFS is from the "world of ideal forms", in contrast DFT is a transform made for a "world of images" that are really just "projections of an underlying ideal form"...

robert bristow-johnson
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Bill Moore
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