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I'm reading "Der Hobbit" and in their first encounter Bilbo and Galdalf address each other as "Ihr". I learned that it's either "du" or "Sie". Is it common to use "Ihr", in literature for instance?

Du darfst auf Deutsch antworten. Ich kann es verstehen, aber noch nicht so gut schreiben.

guidot
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stevenvh
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  • By the way: A rather common word for this is Ihrzen in analogy to Siezen and Duzen. – Wrzlprmft Jun 08 '14 at 10:03
  • Thanks @Wrzlprmft. Does that also mean its use is more common than I would have thought? – stevenvh Jun 08 '14 at 10:05
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    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronominale_Anredeform#Gegen.C3.BCber_Einzelpersonen – Carsten S Jun 08 '14 at 10:08
  • @stevenh: Rather common was meant in relation to the usage of the form itself. Anyway, I do not know how common you thought it to be. Nowadays, it is only used in some dialects and if you want your language to sound archaic. – Wrzlprmft Jun 08 '14 at 10:10
  • Vielen Dank @Carsten, interessante Link. – stevenvh Jun 08 '14 at 10:12
  • Which translation do you read? I recommend to stay away from Krege's variants. – Raphael Jun 08 '14 at 11:16
  • @Rapahel: Are you sure the (older) one by Scherf is better? Krege uses Tolkien's 1966 edition, at least, and is much closer in style, names etc. to Carroux' LOTR than Scherf. Oh, and he does make an effort at least to include the songs and poems which Scherf simply left out most of the time. He fails spectacularly, of course, more often than not, so my advice would be to read Tolkien in the original if you possibly can. – Ingmar Jun 08 '14 at 12:44
  • @Ingmar - I have read Tolkien in English several times, and my idea was that my acquaintance with the book would help me understand the German version. It worked with Kästner's "Drei Männer im Schnee" which I had read in Dutch at least half a dozen times. What I want is to get acquainted with certain expressions, and learn new words. They're easier to remember if you learn them in a context than just learning lists of words. – stevenvh Jun 08 '14 at 12:53
  • @Wrzlprmft - " Anyway, I do not know how common you thought it to be." Well, apparently I didn't think it was common at all. I'd never met it before, and in class we only learned duzen and Siezen. – stevenvh Jun 08 '14 at 13:02
  • „Frau Königin, Ihr seid die Schönste hier, aber Schneewittchen ist tausendmal schöner als Ihr.“ - everybody knows that - so people are familiar with this kind of addressing people esp. in the context of fantasy/fairy-tales. – Takkat Jun 08 '14 at 13:53
  • @Ingmar: I think I read the one by Carroux; I did not know there was a third! – Raphael Jun 08 '14 at 17:13
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    stevenvh, if you want to learn/improve modern German, better stick to more modern work! I liked the translations of Harry Potter, for instance. Most US/UK fantasy is horrible in German (which is why I switched to reading those in the original exclusively years ago). – Raphael Jun 08 '14 at 17:15
  • Carroux translated Lord of The Rings, I think, but not The Hobbit. There are only the two translations mentioned, I think, by Scherf and Krege. Both are still available today. Generally Krege's is considered the more modern translation. I can't comment on either, as I have only read the originals. – Ingmar Jun 08 '14 at 17:15

2 Answers2

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It's called Höflichkeitsform, Honorificum or Honorativ(um). "Ihr" was replaced by "Sie" in the 19th and 20th century. It sounds more formal and historically authentic so it is often used in medieval or fantastic fiction.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6flichkeitsform

Merion
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This is very close to the "pluralis majestatis" and is very common in this genre (medieval/fantasy).

And yes, it is also common for literature, especially older work.

It is a substitute for the polite salutation "Sie". It can easily be formed, as you simply express yourself as if you would talk to more than one person.

"Es gehört Ihnen." → "Es gehört Euch."

"Das glauben Sie wirklich?" → "Das glaubt Ihr wirklich?"

There is also a duden-article on this: Link

Community
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christian.s
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    Thanks. But if it's close to pluralis majestatis shouldn't it be with a capital letter: "Es gehört Euch" and "Das glaubt Ihr wirklich"? That's how it is in the book anyway. ("Das glauben Sie" must be with a capital "S" in any case.) – stevenvh Jun 08 '14 at 09:46
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    It's not really "pluralis majestatis", it's just an old polite form of addressing somebody. In English this form (second person plural, "you") has actually replaced the older form ("thou"). In German there was no replacement, but the polite form in use has shifted to the third person plural ("Sie"). And capitalizing the pronouns in German as a sign of respect can be found for all pronounces (except "ich", maybe, which OTOH is always capitalized in English). – dirkt Jun 08 '14 at 10:41
  • It should be noted that Pluralis Majestatis is not used in modern days, and was only used among peers or "upwards" (afaik). Why Gandalf would use the form addressing Bilbo, I don't know (may be quirk of his, or maybe just shoddy translation). – Raphael Jun 08 '14 at 11:18
  • sorry, I did not say it IS pluralis majestatis - it is, in my opinion, only related – christian.s Jun 08 '14 at 12:22
  • why is this "very close" and not exactly that: the pluralis majistatis. Isn't that exactly the way they were addressed, excluding the actual title of the nobility? But maybe that's a separate question – planetmaker Apr 19 '22 at 12:07