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4 cards are drawn from a 32 card deck. """Let $p_1$ the probability that they are all King such that if at least 1 of them is heart.""" edit Let $p_1$ the probability that they are all kings if at least one of them is a heart Let $p_2$ the probability that they are all King

The mysterious question is to prove that $p_1=p_2 \iff$ the draw is with returns

I don't know how to answer the question without doing any calculations, so I think I'm missing a very simple reasoning

My answer Let X be the number of kings and Y the number of hearts. We search $$ p_1=P((X=4)|(Y\ge 1))=\frac{P((X=4)\cap (Y\ge 1))}{P(Y\geq 1)}$$

With no return drawing $(X=4)\subset (Y\ge 1)$, then

$p_1=\frac{P(X=4)}{1-P(Y=0)}$=${\frac 1{\binom{32}{4}}}\over {1-\frac{\binom {24}{4}}{\binom{32}{4}}}$=$\frac 1{ \binom{32}{4}-\binom {24}{4}}$ and clairely $p_2=P(X=4)=\frac 1{\binom{32}{4}}\neq p_1$

With return drawing $p_1=\frac{P((X=4)\cap (Y\ge 1))}{P(Y\geq 1)}=\frac{P(X=4)-(P(X=4)\cap (Y=0 ))}{1-P(Y=0)}$ but $Cardinal (P(X=4)\cap (Y=0 ))=3^4$ then $p_1=\dfrac{4^4-3^4}{32^4-24^4}=\frac 1{8^4}$ and clairely $p_2=\frac 1{8^4}=p_1$

Pascal
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    Drawn from a 32 card deck?!?! OK, how is that deck defined? – Peter Leopold Aug 30 '22 at 15:24
  • Without returns, consider $\Pr(X=4\mid Y=0)$. This is obviously equal to zero. It is also clear without calculation that $\Pr(X=4)$ is neither equal to zero nor to one. Similarly, $\Pr(Y=0)$ is neither equal to zero nor to one. Again, there is barely any calculation going on so far. This informs you that $\Pr(X=4\mid Y\geq 1)$ must be strictly greater than $\Pr(X=4)$ in order to have things balance out since $\Pr(A)=\Pr(B)\Pr(A\mid B)+\Pr(B^c)\Pr(A\mid B^c)$ per the multiplication principle of probability. – JMoravitz Aug 30 '22 at 15:33
  • With returns, it should be pretty clear that suits and ranks are independent of one another from intuition and practice (but remember that intuition can be wrong and this should be checked). – JMoravitz Aug 30 '22 at 15:34

2 Answers2

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If the draw is without returns, the probability $p(♡|4K)=1$ since you cannot draw four different kings without drawing the king of hearts, and so $$p_1=p(♡,4K)=p(♡|4K)p(4K)=p(4K)=p_2.$$

So the premise of the "mysterious question" that $p_1=p_2$ if and only if the draw is with returns is false.

Your use of conditional probabilities is also wrong. $p(\color{red}{(X=4)}|\color{green}{(Y\ge 1)})$ means "the probability that we have $\color{red}{\text{four kings}}$ given that we have $\color{green}{\text{one or more hearts}}$". What the question asks about is $p(Y\ge1|X=4)$, the probability that given four kings, one of them is a heart, which is $p(♡|4K)$ in my notation, which must be 1 if drawing without returns.

If drawing with returns, $p(Y\ge1|X=4)=1-(3/4)^4={175\over256}\approx0.68$. Here the $(3/4)^4$ is the probability of four draws with no heart. (Since each draw of cards is independent, the chance of drawing one or more hearts, $p(Y\ge1)$, is actually the same as the chance of drawing a king of hearts given that we've drawn four kings, $p(Y\ge1|X=4)$.)

So with returns $$ p_1=p(Y\geq1|X=4)p(X=4)={175\over256}{1\over8^4}\neq p(X=4)=p_2={1\over8^4}. $$

Edit: Apparently "such that if at least one of them is a heart" is supposed to indicate drawing kings when one or more of the cards is a heart. In that case the conclusion is obvious, since the probability of drawing a king is independent of the probability of drawing a heart. $p(K|♡)=p(K)=1/8$ and $p(k,♡)=p(K)p(♡)=1/32$.

Suzu Hirose
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    the probability that they are all King such that if at least 1 of them is heart means $p((X=4)|(Y\ge 1))$ not $p(Y\ge1|X=4)$ – Pascal Aug 30 '22 at 22:42
  • The wording of the question must be confusing you. "Such that if" doesn't make much sense, but it is introducing a condition. The sentence should be read as "Let $p_1$ be the probability that all four cards are kings given that at least one of them is a heart." – Daniel Mathias Aug 30 '22 at 22:42
  • @Jane "such that if at least 1 of them is heart" makes no sense at all. You need to say "The probability that they are all kings if at least one of them is a heart" if you want that. With returns the probabilities of hearts and kings are independent so the answer is very clear without any calculations. – Suzu Hirose Aug 30 '22 at 22:47
  • Ok , i will edit my text – Pascal Aug 30 '22 at 22:55
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I take $p_1$ to be the probability that the drawn cards are all Kings given that at least one of them is a heart. As stated, $p_2$ is the probability that the drawn cards are all Kings.

Then letting $X$ be the number of kings, $Y$ the number of hearts, if the cards are drawn without replacement then $X=4$ if and only if $X=4$ and $Y\geq 1$ (that is, we can only draw four kings if one of them is the king of hearts), so we have \begin{align} p_2 &= P(X=4) \\ &= P(X=4\mid Y\geq1) \\ &= P(X=4\mid Y\geq1) P(Y\geq1) \\ &= p_1 P(Y\geq1). \end{align}

Hence $p_1 = p_2$ only if $P(Y\geq 1) = 1,$ which is false. It is not possible that $p_1 = p_2$ if the cards are drawn without replacement.

Drawing with replacement, on each draw there is a $1/8$ probability of a king and a $1/4$ probability of a heart, each event independent of the other and independent of the occurrence of a king or a heart on any other draw. From this you should be able to form an argument that the events $X=4$ and $Y\geq1$ are independent without doing any explicit calculations.

David K
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